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#71
06-08-2006, 10:07 AM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am not sure how you can tell that you are unable to believe in him. I can tell that I currently do not believe in Krishna, but I am by no means sure that I am unable to. [/ QUOTE ] Letc check the logic first. If its true that I'm unable to believe in him then do you agree the rest follows? chez [/ QUOTE ] i think it's possible that our inability to believe is a result of choices we've freely made in the past. i dont want to argue about how likley that is, i just think it's conceivable that our inability to believe could be our own "fault" and not god's. [/ QUOTE ] What is the nature of these previous choices that could possible justify eternal damnation by a benevolent god. Edit: it would change the argument somewhat as christianity claims that belief in jesus is the key to redemption and redemption always possible. Now it would be some other unspecified choice which the supposed god hasn't told us about. chez 
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#72
06-08-2006, 10:29 AM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am not sure how you can tell that you are unable to believe in him. I can tell that I currently do not believe in Krishna, but I am by no means sure that I am unable to. [/ QUOTE ] Letc check the logic first. If its true that I'm unable to believe in him then do you agree the rest follows? chez [/ QUOTE ] i think it's possible that our inability to believe is a result of choices we've freely made in the past. i dont want to argue about how likley that is, i just think it's conceivable that our inability to believe could be our own "fault" and not god's. [/ QUOTE ] What is the nature of these previous choices that could possible justify eternal damnation by a benevolent god. chez [/ QUOTE ] i don't know, they amount to a rejection of god? even if you never explicitly believe in him?
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#73
06-08-2006, 10:36 AM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am not sure how you can tell that you are unable to believe in him. I can tell that I currently do not believe in Krishna, but I am by no means sure that I am unable to. [/ QUOTE ] Letc check the logic first. If its true that I'm unable to believe in him then do you agree the rest follows? chez [/ QUOTE ] i think it's possible that our inability to believe is a result of choices we've freely made in the past. i dont want to argue about how likley that is, i just think it's conceivable that our inability to believe could be our own "fault" and not god's. [/ QUOTE ] What is the nature of these previous choices that could possible justify eternal damnation by a benevolent god. chez [/ QUOTE ] i don't know, they amount to a rejection of god? even if you never explicitly believe in him? [/ QUOTE ] Failing to deal with rejection is a human weakness and even most humans wouldn't wish eternal damnation on the rejector. A god who damns those who reject something they don't believe in has serious problems. chez
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#74
06-08-2006, 11:11 AM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
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[ QUOTE ] Failing to deal with rejection is a human weakness and even most humans wouldn't wish eternal damnation on the rejector. A god who damns those who reject something they don't believe in has serious problems. [/ QUOTE ] chez [/ QUOTE ] when i used the word "reject" i was referring to the choice that amounts to or results in a denial of god's existence, not the attitude people have towards that which they already disbelieve. i'm not trying to convince you that at some point in your life you had the opportunity to make a choice that could have "saved you," i'm only trying to convince you that it's possible. i also think it's possible that what we call "damnation" is the state of separation from god that god allows us to "opt into." and maybe if god said "screw it, i love everyone so nobody is going to be able to choose not to be with me, since i'm ulitmately what's good for them" then there would be no point to the universe.
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#75
06-08-2006, 12:18 PM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Failing to deal with rejection is a human weakness and even most humans wouldn't wish eternal damnation on the rejector. A god who damns those who reject something they don't believe in has serious problems. [/ QUOTE ] chez [/ QUOTE ] when i used the word "reject" i was referring to the choice that amounts to or results in a denial of god's existence, not the attitude people have towards that which they already disbelieve. i'm not trying to convince you that at some point in your life you had the opportunity to make a choice that could have "saved you," i'm only trying to convince you that it's possible. i also think it's possible that what we call "damnation" is the state of separation from god that god allows us to "opt into." and maybe if god said "screw it, i love everyone so nobody is going to be able to choose not to be with me, since i'm ulitmately what's good for them" then there would be no point to the universe. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, its possible but I doubt its consistent with a benevolent god. Hard to argue as its so hypethetical but, its not christianity which argues that redemption is always possible. I suppose you can argue that something else unexplained could restore my ability to believe [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] and yes maybe god needs to be unbenevolent to give his universe meaning, I'm not arguing anything against an unbenevolent god but, as before, if god's unbenevolent there's no reason to believe any course is more or less likely to cause damnation. chez
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#77
06-09-2006, 08:19 PM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I am not sure how you can tell that you are unable to believe in him. I can tell that I currently do not believe in Krishna, but I am by no means sure that I am unable to. [/ QUOTE ] Letc check the logic first. If its true that I'm unable to believe in him then do you agree the rest follows? chez [/ QUOTE ] No, but if the first bit doesn't hold, then I'm saved the trouble of dealing with the rest [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] In my experience most people seem to be able to believe in (ie trust, and congruently act as if it were true) just about anything. Particularly if it is true. Do you think that there are classes of things that are true that you are not able to believe in?
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#78
06-09-2006, 08:26 PM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
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You can't cherry-pick the words of the Lord thy God. [/ QUOTE ] That would be stealing your thunder.
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#79
06-09-2006, 08:35 PM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I am not sure how you can tell that you are unable to believe in him. I can tell that I currently do not believe in Krishna, but I am by no means sure that I am unable to. [/ QUOTE ] Letc check the logic first. If its true that I'm unable to believe in him then do you agree the rest follows? chez [/ QUOTE ] No, but if the first bit doesn't hold, then I'm saved the trouble of dealing with the rest [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] In my experience most people seem to be able to believe in (ie trust, and congruently act as if it were true) just about anything. Particularly if it is true. Do you think that there are classes of things that are true that you are not able to believe in? [/ QUOTE ] Not absolutely no, but but I can't believe things are true on faith. If god exists and wants me to believe in him then he knows he needs to demonstrate his existence to me. Stories that appear entirely the work of men, supported by many (not you) who are talking through there arse about reasons to believe aren't going to do the trick. If god exists he knows this, its my (and others) natures to be skeptical. Its inconceivable that a benevolent god will be bothered by this. chez
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#80
06-09-2006, 08:46 PM
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Re: religion and faith (also long)
[ QUOTE ]
In my experience most people seem to be able to believe in (ie trust, and congruently act as if it were true) just about anything. Particularly if it is true. Do you think that there are classes of things that are true that you are not able to believe in? [/ QUOTE ] That's really been your experience? There have definitely been things that were 100% true that I simply couldn't believe in. But that still doesn't approach this question. If 2+2=5 were true, could you believe it? It's nonsensical. It's impossible for me to believe that 2+2=5, so it's impossible for me to even consider the situation of 2+2=5 being "true." The situation with God is the same. Your statements that you can't justify God's actions, but trust Him anyway, are equivalent to saying "I can't tell you why 2+2=5, but just believe it!" It's not just that the Christian God seems unlikely, it's that He doesn't add up. Those justifications are necessary for me to believe that the architect of hell is omnibenevolent, just as they are necessary for me to believe that 2+2=5 (assuming I can do so in the first place). It's not just a matter of asking me to believe it, you're going to have to tell me how I can believe such a thing before I even have the choice.
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