continuation bets

[chh]

I just read that other post about how to be lag etc and it made me think about continuation bets.

The thing is, while cbets are obviously vastly +ev I cbet in position literally 100% of the time. And I generally also do it almost as often oop. I never regarded it as a hole or anything because of how bad most players are and how quickly you change tables, but maybe it in fact is some kind of a hole in my game. Especially as my "never check" also obviously might cost me some value against weaker hands that fold on the flop but might put in some more chips later on.

I'm adding a variety of flops here so you can comment on where you would always cbet, never cbet, or check for value etc

AA on A95r
AA on KT7r
AK on Q93r
AsKs on 9s8s4h
AK on AK6r
AQ on Q75r

how often do you generally cbet and how often do you check behind for value? What changes between being IP and OOP?

would be great to get some opinions [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

cheers,

Chris

[wulfpacker21]

the only time i usually cbet is when im in position... and pretty much the only time that i cbet OOP is when hes pretty weak.

[levAA]

i c-bet most of the times when i'm out of position, but first one to bet against a single opponent.
i c-bet often when i'm in middle position on the flop and the first opponent checked.
i don't like c-betting in position, as it is seen often exactly what it is - a stealer.

from your examples my typical c-bets are nr. 3 and nr. 4, all the others i think are value bets.

[Sherman]

I think the timing is perfect for this discussion. uNL has a big discussion of c-betting in their sticky, and we hardly ever talk about it in here.

So here is my take. First of all, my c-bet % since February is 56.26%. I get the feeling that many in here will find that surprisingly low. I am not saying that my % is perfect and what you should be shooting for however.

Your c-bet % partially depends how tight you are raising PF.

But anyhow, I think part of what makes my c-bet percentage lower is that it isn't automatic. For those of you who have been reading Bond's well (linked here ), Bond replies to Cat discussing the 3 biggest weaknesses of decent but not great small stakes poker players.

The first weakness he points out is that most decent small stakes players don't question "why" they are doing something. They just do it.

I think this comment is particularly true of c-bets. I think a lot of people c-bet without thinking about the flop, their opponent's hand range, how many opponent's took the flop, how often they have been c-betting, etc.

One way to improve your c-bet game is like this:
When you have air, think about what hands your opponent will fold that you would like to fold (or charge to draw, sometimes your A high is still good, but not far ahead). How many of those hands are in your opponents range and how likely are they to fold?

When you have something, think about which hands in your opponent's range you would like to call or make pay to draw.

That's it. If you think about these two questions when you decide to c-bet, I think many posters will realize that some of their c-bets have a negative expectation.


A few other things to consider when c-betting:

I will sometimes c-bet into two opponents with air. Never 3 opponents. But the board has to be right. Something like Q44 and I have AK, I think it's okay to c-bet two opponents there.

How likely is your opponent to check/raise you? Have you been c-betting a lot? The more likely he is to check/raise, the more likely you should check behind (unless you want to get check/raised of course).

The cards I most dislike c-betting on are T's and J's. I'm not sure why J's, but it seems like someone who has called my PFR, usually has some middling hand like KJ,QJ,JT,QT,T9. If not that, they often has a straight draw with the T's or J's out there. So it can be tricky to play those boards because you want to c-bet them for their draw, but often can't continue firing U/I on the turn.

[Jerro]

Loads of stuff should influence your decision to continuation bet including stack sizes, likelihood of getting played back against, how active you have been, how badly you missed the flop, how good/perceptive your opponent is, flop texture etc

If you continuation bet 100% of flops you are very exploitable and it is a definite leak....
People will start to float or raise your flop bets and take the pot away on later streets...

Sometimes it is correct to just check fold...
Also if you mix it up more, people will respect your checks more which can be useful...

Hopefully other people can elaborate more...just don't fall into the trap of thinking I have to continuation bet every flop because "they could have missed too"

[sbj]

By curtains:
http://www.gogol.co.uk/curtains/Continuation%20Bet.html

[MJBuddy]

If you CBet 100% of the time HU, it's still +EV. Of course, it may not be maximized EV, but BY DEFAULT I feel your game needs to evolve through this. You need to personally run into situations that you go "ew" to a CBet, and do it anyway. You'll find out that you were right to go Ew sometimes, and you'll find out that you were wrong - learn. Learn calling ranges, apply them to flops, etc.


I do and have check folded, even HU. I really don't take position into play often as it comes, and I'm more adept to check behind than I am to check to lead. If I raise pre and open check, I will get fired into 70% of the time, even by hands that I'm beating.

[BlueEcho]

[ QUOTE ]

I do and have check folded, even HU. I really don't take position into play often as it comes, and I'm more adept to check behind than I am to check to lead. If I raise pre and open check, I will get fired into 70% of the time, even by hands that I'm beating .

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a substantial point and one that alot of players are not using in there game. This adds loads of value to your hand. Well stated MJBuddy.

[black666]

[ QUOTE ]
The cards I most dislike c-betting on are T's and J's. I'm not sure why J's, but it seems like someone who has called my PFR, usually has some middling hand like KJ,QJ,JT,QT,T9. If not that, they often has a straight draw with the T's or J's out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember Rizen saying in a PXF video that he very rarely c-bets air on a flop that contains a J or T, because people like to play JT, QT, QJ, KJ,..
I was watching the J/T flops a lot lately and it seems like it is true. People call c-bets on such flops way more than on other flops.

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The cards I most dislike c-betting on are T's and J's. I'm not sure why J's, but it seems like someone who has called my PFR, usually has some middling hand like KJ,QJ,JT,QT,T9. If not that, they often has a straight draw with the T's or J's out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember Rizen saying in a PXF video that he very rarely c-bets air on a flop that contains a J or T, because people like to play JT, QT, QJ, KJ,..
I was watching the J/T flops a lot lately and it seems like it is true. People call c-bets on such flops way more than on other flops.

[/ QUOTE ]

JT is a great hand to smooth call the BB with. T is probably the scariest card in the deck other than an A because it's used in the most straights, so it's played almost as much at an Ace.