nl25 FR: committing my stack with an overpair

[roll]

I haven't been at the table long so no reads on utg+1 yet.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $26.20
UTG+1: $23.75
MP1: $11.90
hero: $25.70
Button: $17.70
SB: $15.45
BB: $13.95

Pre-flop: (7 players) hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $1</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($3.35, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">hero bets $3</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $6</font>, hero calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($15.35, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $10</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises all-in $18.7</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 calls all-in $6.75</font>.
Uncalled bets: $1.95 returned to hero.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($48.85, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $48.85)


When utg+1 bets the turn I have to decide whether to commit the rest of my stack or not. Without any real read on him what other factors can I consider to help make the decision easier? How does flop texture play a role with these overpair hands, i.e. should I be less likely to push the turn knowing that utg+1 is not semibluffing a flush draw (and JQ is unlikely as I have QQ)?

I just feel weak folding this turn but the rest is going in on the river if I call.. thanks for the help guys.

[roll]

I'm thinking about what hands utg+1 could have that are beating me: 22, 99, TT, 55, 9Ts (14 combinations)

and what hands he could have that I'm beating:
JTs, QTs, KTs, ATs, JJ (18 combinations)

So my conclusion is that I should be winning over half the time here and should be happy to get it all in on the turn. Does this look good or what?

[Low_Card2]

raise 4bb+1 for ever limper, make it 1.5 preflop, especially with Queens where you dont want Ax calling you.

[roll]

When I first started playing nl I used that strategy of raising 4bb + 1 for each limper. Then I started reading NLHE theory and practice which explains, beginning on page 111, why you can do much better by catering your raises to your holdings in some situations and raising somewhat randomly in other situations. This effectively gives you more freedom to set up big pots with some hands while (assuming you're doing things correctly) still not giving away information about your hand. In this case, with QQ, I would put in a bigger preflop raise a lot of the time purely for value but I thought it would be a nice spot to mix things up a bit (still working on identifying these "nice spots").

At any rate, about wanting Ax to fold. I'm not sure I understand this. Sure when the ace flops I can get pushed off my hand fairly easily on the turn (or sometimes even on the flop) but probobly only when my oponent actually has the ace as I can represent AK or AQ easily here by c-betting the flop when the ace hits.

If my opponent has AK he's not folding no matter how I (sanely) size the preflop raise. But any other ace has 3 outs against me. If they miss the flop I pick up the pot and if the x of the Ax hits TPTK I have a chance to stack them as in the case where my opponent has ATs in the hand above. So why do I want these hands to fold when I beat them so much and invest little to find out that I'm beaten?

[the_muppeteer]

IMO this is not one of the "nice spots" your looking for when making "tricky" preflop raises. Against loose players, wich these people probably are, you should build big pots with big hands. Not allowing them to call you cheaply with garbage hands...

[Leviathan101]

You should be putting in a good sized raise for pure value here preflop. 6xbb is fine. Theory and Practice suggests catering your raises to the situation, but this is definitely a situation where you want to make a bigger raise. If you have 55 you may decide to pop it up to 2xbb for a pot sweetner to make it super easy to stack someone postflop if they make a hand.

Against an unknown on 25nl, I'm pretty comfortable getting my money in with QQ on that board.

The point of Ax not calling, is you don't want them calling cheap. Most players at 25nl can't fold a pair of aces, and you really don't want them to see the flop cheaply. If your preflop raise is small enough, it may even be CORRECT for them to call to spike an ace and scoop up the pot. You want them to tag along, but only as long as they pay too much to do so.

[Sean Fraley]

While NLHTAP is a very good book, it assumes that the opponents that you are up against are noticeably better than the ones that you find in the micros. This is why Ed Miller is in the process of writing a book focusing specifically on micro and small stakes NL. Trust us, in the micros 4xBB+1 for every limper is the best way to go. As for representing AK, I had to lose some money before realizing that at the micros, it is almost impossible to represent anything. At least 90% of the players can't think beyond what two cards they have. This means that the vast majority of the time, you can have Jesus Christ himself come down from on high to personally inform them that you have TPTK, and they will still refuse to fold A2. Later, at higher limits, the time will come where a real level of sophistication in your play will be profitable. For now though, it will just lose you the money that you need to get to those higher limits.

[roll]

Very profound response, yet somehow I should have guessed as much.. so I will now propose the following "hybrid" strategy for preflop raise sizing at micro NL.

With my strong hands, where raising for value is clearly correct, 4bb+1 per limper is the way to go. With hands good for stacking people in big pots (like smaller pairs etc) raising more like 2bb - 4bb is fine and if i find my opponents are somehow getting a read on me then I need to go back to posts re: table selection 101...

thanks for the help guys ^_^

[Bort99]

Often you'll take down the pot with a c-bet when you put in a real raise with 22. Often you'll win it preflop.

I guess sizing your bets weirdly does make your opponents think you're a jackass, which has its ups and downs.