So looks like I can't fold aces or kings... how bad is that?

JDalla · #1 11-08-2007, 01:33 AM

2 hands where I showdown AA and KK in hopeless looking situations. Where should I be ducking out here?

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

PokerStars 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, 2 folds, SB :#A500AF(Reshef )/ 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP calls, SB :#A500AF(Reshef )/ calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Reshef bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, MP calls, Reshef folds, Hero caps, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (13.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (16.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 18.50 BB

Crusher19 · #2 11-08-2007, 06:38 PM

the KK hand is an awful call on the river. AA aint so bad.

StellarWind · #3 11-08-2007, 06:58 PM

KK: Folding the turn is possible as your outs look pretty soft. Once BB checks the river the busted flush draw is exposed and his hand is almost certainly no threat to either of you. I think you have to call one more given you are effectively HU in a huge pot.

AA: Bet the turn. I'm sure someone is drawing but it's probably the flush. The straight seems unlikely.

Tryptamean · #4 11-08-2007, 07:31 PM

When I was reading these last night, they didnt seem very bad. In the KK hand you have to call the turn obv, and with the unexpected river action, a call seems reasonable, but it sure does look like UTG smooth called the turn with Tx to keep you in while he believes he could be chopping...

In the AA hand, its also really reasonable to showdown, but I dont understand the turn check. The only othe player to show aggression on the flop raised UTG, so you cant be worried about a straight from him. If MP happens to have a 7 with his flush draw, then whatever, if he called 3 cold on the flop with 7x and no flush draw, then god bless him.

Tweed _Man · #5 11-08-2007, 08:36 PM

Hand 1

I would find a fold on the river at least, I dont really like the flop play either but its pretty hard to see exactly where you stand without the 3-bet (without some solid reads) so meh.

Hand 2

Urgh.. I dont know if I could find a fold anywhere there given the preflop action.

JDalla · #6 11-08-2007, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When I was reading these last night, they didnt seem very bad. In the KK hand you have to call the turn obv, and with the unexpected river action, a call seems reasonable, but it sure does look like UTG smooth called the turn with Tx to keep you in while he believes he could be chopping...

In the AA hand, its also really reasonable to showdown, but I dont understand the turn check. The only othe player to show aggression on the flop raised UTG, so you cant be worried about a straight from him. If MP happens to have a 7 with his flush draw, then whatever, if he called 3 cold on the flop with 7x and no flush draw, then god bless him.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA: so are you advocating bet/call/SD? or bet/fold?

in my experience in this spots I always 'feel' like I'm beat, I always c/c down, and I'm almost always beat. If not by 87 then by some crappy 2 pair or a set. People will coldcall 2 with suited cards all the time these days...

KK: I don't want to be results oriented, but I was actually ahead on the turn and got rivered this hand. This makes me feel like I shouldn't have been considering a turn fold, but then I'm pretty much locked into a river call.

milesdyson · #7 11-08-2007, 11:56 PM

7c6c ?

Tryptamean · #8 11-09-2007, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I was reading these last night, they didnt seem very bad. In the KK hand you have to call the turn obv, and with the unexpected river action, a call seems reasonable, but it sure does look like UTG smooth called the turn with Tx to keep you in while he believes he could be chopping...

In the AA hand, its also really reasonable to showdown, but I dont understand the turn check. The only othe player to show aggression on the flop raised UTG, so you cant be worried about a straight from him. If MP happens to have a 7 with his flush draw, then whatever, if he called 3 cold on the flop with 7x and no flush draw, then god bless him.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA: so are you advocating bet/call/SD? or bet/fold?

in my experience in this spots I always 'feel' like I'm beat, I always c/c down, and I'm almost always beat. If not by 87 then by some crappy 2 pair or a set. People will coldcall 2 with suited cards all the time these days...

KK: I don't want to be results oriented, but I was actually ahead on the turn and got rivered this hand. This makes me feel like I shouldn't have been considering a turn fold, but then I'm pretty much locked into a river call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP raises your bet and UTG's call, I'd be pretty convinced he has you beat... I didnt really consider 87 when I typed that out... I dont really know whats best

JDalla · #9 11-09-2007, 12:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
7c6c ?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah

JDalla · #10 11-09-2007, 12:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I was reading these last night, they didnt seem very bad. In the KK hand you have to call the turn obv, and with the unexpected river action, a call seems reasonable, but it sure does look like UTG smooth called the turn with Tx to keep you in while he believes he could be chopping...

In the AA hand, its also really reasonable to showdown, but I dont understand the turn check. The only othe player to show aggression on the flop raised UTG, so you cant be worried about a straight from him. If MP happens to have a 7 with his flush draw, then whatever, if he called 3 cold on the flop with 7x and no flush draw, then god bless him.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA: so are you advocating bet/call/SD? or bet/fold?

in my experience in this spots I always 'feel' like I'm beat, I always c/c down, and I'm almost always beat. If not by 87 then by some crappy 2 pair or a set. People will coldcall 2 with suited cards all the time these days...

KK: I don't want to be results oriented, but I was actually ahead on the turn and got rivered this hand. This makes me feel like I shouldn't have been considering a turn fold, but then I'm pretty much locked into a river call.

[/ QUOTE ]

If MP raises your bet and UTG's call, I'd be pretty convinced he has you beat... I didnt really consider 87 when I typed that out... I dont really know whats best

[/ QUOTE ]

bet/call turn, and the check/fold river if UTG calls turn? I lose as much as I did in the hand but prevent freecards / maybe fold outs. But then if I ever did lay down the winner on the river I'd probably hurt myself... but meh that might be the best plan.