I bet/fold like a little girl

[donger]

Villain here is a solid 26/20/2.0 type TAG. I do a lot of SB open-limping and i'm balancing here.

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Donger is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, Donger calls, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Donger 3-bets</font>, BB calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Donger bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Donger bets</font>, BB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Donger bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises</font>, Donger folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 8BB

[threeonefour]

if you are going to fold to a raise, i would rather check call. there is a good chance checking would induce a bluff against a normal villian right?

i see the "zomg scary river card + he checked to me = bluff ftw" logic a lot.


also, i know you say you are balancing, but raise preflop. balance with Ax or Axs, not something this stellar. at least that is my 2 cents.

[threeonefour]

eh now that i think about it. if this guy is a solid tag and just calling down he likely has Ax, maybe bet/fold is better.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

I dont like it. With the FD and all straight draws missing I think you'll make/save more money check/calling the river than bet/folding.

Given that you limped preflop combined with the proclivity of many tags to raise in this spot with almost any two, I think its very possible for your opponent to have almost any straight draw and any FD, and its certainly logical that he would take a passive line postflop given your LRR.

Once your opponent raises your river bet I think folding will usually be the correct play, but I still think check/calling will be better than bet/folding since your opponent's range will be much wider than normal given your preflop line.

I would also like to point out as a general idea, taking a non-showdown line with even this strong of a hand in a HU blind battle can be very dangerous. I think you should have a very strong reason before taking such a line in this situation.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]


also, i know you say you are balancing, but raise preflop. balance with Ax or Axs, not something this stellar. at least that is my 2 cents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares about balance. There are more than a handful of tags that I would always limp in with JJs here cuz I know they will pop my open limp every time. Balance only has meaning when people are smart enough to figure out quickly exactly what youre doing. Against most players I would strive for the most imbalanced strategy that I can get away with becuz this is where the truly large amounts of money can be made.

While I strongly believe that discussing the balance idea in the theoretical sense can be very helpful in certain areas, I often think that people take the balance idea too far. While I often see many people striving for balance or espousing its virtues, I seldom see anyone acknowledge the inherent costs of their balancing strategy.

I think if people really understood the costs assoicated with balance they would seek, more actively, tables or opponent types where they can utilize highly imbalanced/exploitable strategies.

This is how I play poker, and I realize that its not the only way to make money, but constantly searching for situations where I can be extremely imblanced/exploitable is basicly how I approach this game.

There are times when balance is necessary, but I believe these situations are more rare than most people think.

[ILOVEPOKER929]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like it. With the FD and all straight draws missing I think you'll make/save more money check/calling the river than bet/folding.

Given that you limped preflop combined with the proclivity of many tags to raise in this spot with almost any two, I think its very possible for your opponent to have almost any straight draw and any FD, and its certainly logical that he would take a passive line postflop given your LRR.

Once your opponent raises your river bet I think folding will usually be the correct play, but I still think check/calling will be better than bet/folding since your opponent's range will be much wider than normal given your preflop line. However a broken draw should still be less likely.

I would also like to point out as a general idea, taking a non-showdown line with even this strong of a hand in a HU blind battle can be very dangerous. I think you should have a very strong reason before taking such a line in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just noticed that there was a fullhouse board on the turn. My analysis assumed that there were only two 5s on the turn board. This changes things significanly as the villain is now less likely to have a broken draw on the river. I still believe that many opponents will take their draws to the river on this board since they may convienently put you on ace high and assume that they have Fullhouse outs along with their other draw outs, but that doesnt change the fact that a broken draw is now less likely.

I still believe that check/calling the river is better than bet/folding without a compelling read in this situation. I also believe that all lines lose money on the river vs a competent opponent. I think check/calling loses the least.

[sweetjazz]

The problem with limp reraising JJ in the SB is that the villains who tend to always raise a SB limp are the same villains who tend to 3bet an SB open too much.

I definitely think check/calling that river is the winning play, though Ax is such a large part of his range that you're not gonna like any option you choose. But at least give the spades or the straight draw or the random overs a chance to stab.

[admiralfluff]

[ QUOTE ]
I still believe that check/calling the river is better than bet/folding without a compelling read in this situation. I also believe that all lines lose money on the river vs a competent opponent. I think check/calling loses the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

yep.

Also, if you're going to olimp the SB, I think you should be doing it with the intention of lrring.

edit: which you did. I am a moran.

[geormiet]

I think this is a really tough river for an opponent to bluff raise. I think this hand was played ok.

[bmorganonap]

Its a good fold, but since its a good fold it also means c/c is better since you get to induce a bluff. also he'll sometimes bet the smaller paired hands you missed value against anyways.