I might be playing too passive

[DeathDonkey]

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Also DD, i still like the river check. Not because i think they ever c/c JJ-AA here, but because i personally will check the river all the time with those hands intending to c/r... many dumb players bluff missed clubs or VB any pair putting me on the A high club draw and thinking there is value in their bet. So yah, i'm not thinking he's ever c/c those hands, i think he is c/r them. He knows we dont have a T or KK+.

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Gabe, I totally agree that's what you or I would be doing with a big pair here on the river, but villain is an unknown 15/30 player. I don't believe we should expect AA to play this way from an unknown. You are effectively saying the default play when you see this line is to put villain on a big pair or nothing and I think the default play should be to put him on ace high.

-DeathDonkey

[ggbman]

Yeah i mean very valid point chris... I feel like given the preflop and flop action, i would have to weight his more towards boradway clubs of AcXc if he is going to show up with a non pair hand here. Many of those combo's don't really have showdown value here, which combined with the possibility of a river a c/r for value(even tho u are right that it will happen less often here), or even the 1% of the time he checks with clubs thinking to give up and then clicks the raise buytton instead, made me like the check. After more thought, i think it's closer to a bet than i thought and still closer to a check than you might have thought. If we knew than an unknown was always calling with Ac9c once he checked the river obv. we would bet more, but since we don't i think this spot is tricky.

[DeathDonkey]

I've been playing lots of HU lately so I just assume they always check/call with ace high there on the end (I feel like if they weren't going to check/call they would desperation bet, nobody gives up and check/folds here it seems). I will let you sway me enough to say its close and I shouldn't have been "shocked" that people want to check. I do think a bet is good for metagame in many ways, even if they check/fold all those ace highs it puts some doubt into their mind and may lead to future light payoffs from that doubt. Also if they check/call (even if they have us beat) seeing that we won't give them any free showdowns is +psychological warfare for us for sure.

-DeathDonkey

[admiralfluff]

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Quote:
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I think that value you extract from giving a free card to broadway clubs will not compensate for the times you get c/r on the turn by one of the aforementioned hands.


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This doesn't make any sense to me. How does checking the turn to give a free card to broadway clubs extract value? It's pissing away value.

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The point of the flop cap and turn check is not to give ourselfs a free card with JJ here lol. It is meant to

a.) save us a half bet when he has us crushed and whiffs on his turn c/r (And btw, with the preflop flop action i think you are nuts if you think villian won't try to c/r the turn with a set of KK+ the vaaaaaast majority of the time, it a much more common occurance than him donking again
b.) induce a bluff which we other would not, or to induce it with a higher frequency since he could obviously just keep firing if we just call the flop 3 bet, bet he might bluff MORE on the river after a weird turn line which looks like we do not have a made hand
c.) make him call down lighter- making it look like we took a free card when in fact we have a strong hand, he will definitley have to show down a lot lighter. Suggesting that

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a) If we don't cap the flop, he won't go for the turn c/r.
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This obviously applies to the turn follow up play if we cap the flop, i'm not saying if we call the three bet and he checks the turn we should check behind because i understand he won't go a turn c/r all that often if we call the flop 3 bet.

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b) He doesn't have a bluffing hand often enough here to make this worthwhile. When we're ahead he has a pair or a big A the majority of the time.

Maybe the unknown 15/30s at PS are different than the unknown FTP 15/30s, but I wouldn't think so. The FTP is my bread and butter game, and so many aggro villains will pedal-down with weirdness, (underpairs, Ax with fd, AKo...).

They will donk redonk flush-draws, donk-call the river with AK... It happens all the time.

capping the flop to check the turn simply gives his fd and oc hands a free card (bad for us), extracts the minimum from his underpairs (bad for us), and probably doesn't save against his big hands, because he leads those on the turn anyways way more than 50% of the time.

[Victor]

ggb, my problem with your cap/check line is that it sucks if villain bets out on the turn which tons of ppl would do with aa/kk.

[Bill King]

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i check river against plenty of players. against an unkown i bet 100%.

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QFT, I play it like this. I think it's easy to fold to a CR, and he's aggro enough that if he's capping the flop for value, he's probably betting this river for value too.


Also, why are you supposed to have a ten here (from villain's perspective?) You capped PF with JT? I think you get called by AK/Q/J here tons.

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you might also get called by worse pairs.. i just hate missing a bet after he checks the river in such a draw heavy capped flop.. i think betting and being called by a better hand is less of a mistake than betting and being called by worse

[ggbman]

Victor, Admiral...

I think it's much more frequent that someone donks into a capper with a strong hand when there is less preflop action and the flop is much more draw heavy. Here it was capped 3 way preflop, making bigger hands more likely to be in play, and the only real draw here is clubs, not like this is 689 two tone baord where there are a zillion draws that these people could be playing agressivley. So i am going to maintain that someone holding AA, KK here is far more likely to go for a turn c/r then donk again because they are worried about someone checking behind to take a freebie. Now i am i saying they never donk those hands here? Of course not, i just think it's less often due to these factors.


Without getting too caught up in this admiral, i think you tend polarize your argument so strongly towards one side of this that it's impossible to make an argument that will make you sway. I mean in your last post, you said in one breath you felt worse hands call down a lot so giving a free card on the turn was cap if cap/check, and then in the next break explain how they often donk-redonk these inferior hands (which then makes the flop cap with JJ great since we get in 4 bet on the flop with the best hand and still get in 1 bet on the big ones!)

Also, if you had said something to the extent of "Gabe, i think you are underestimating how often a set or KK+ here is donking the turn after we cap the flop", then i would gladly look through the hand and evaluate that spot again. But if you saying they are doing this

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way more than 50%

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then its pretty clear that you are both overestimating it by a lot and not receptive to the idea that you are, since this is something i explored in one of my earlier posts. I also gave reasons why i thought my line would induce more bluffs and make him call down lighter, and you didn't respond to these points in any form even though they are pretty key. I'm also kind of high so i'm sorry I am turning this into a pissing match, but it seems as you just wanted to pick apart this line and really didn't understand or choose to think through or acknowledge some of it's very obvious beneits. That said, there is a reason the default line here is the default line. I posted something that i have found to work well, I definitley suppose it could be inferior on the whole to the more standard play, but i am not covinced of that. I am also 1000% sure you are skewing various stuff like his turn donk frequnecy's, not taking into account extra bets gained while ahead capping the flop, the fact that you say he would still donk worse hands after cap the flop, inducing more bluffs, etc... to suit your side of the argument. Since we are not going to convince each other, we can be done with it.

[admiralfluff]

Gabe,

I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be harsh, and am not trying to trash your line without mercy or consideration.

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I'm also kind of high

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Re-read your posts when you are straight, and you will understand why some of your points are unclear.


To address your point about bluffing:
I agree that the cap/check line will induce far more bluffs than the call/call line. The problem is that villain must have a bluffing hand to bluff. Given the action thus far, villain will very rarely have a bluffing hand after the flop 3bet. I would estimate that he is going to SD more than 95% of the time here (and I am not trying to exaggerate here). So we gain very little by maxmizing our bluff induction because of the unlikely condition that villain has a hand to bluff with.

To address the appearant inconsistency in my logic:
Once villain 3bets the flop we no longer have an equity edge. However, villain will often continue to play the weaker part of his range aggressively as well (redonking turn) which is why we must call down, but it is not good for us. So even though when villain has weakness he will often donk the turn, when he donks he does not have weakness often. Once villain checks the river, I think he usually has a weak hand so the bet is easy (for me).

I think your line could have merits as a mixing strategy against villains who are really LAGgro early, but play big streets well. I don't think the unknown distribution has enough of this player type in it to use this line here.

evan

[bmorganonap]

Ide certainly bet this river for value... so many hands you beat call, and unless he's unreal tricky you aren't getting checkraised.

[ggbman]

I pretty much explained benefits against his entire range including

-hands better than hours
-A high clubs draws
-non ace high club draws
-lower pairs

And i made clear points before i was high. I simply mentioned that in case i was making it too much of dick waving thing, not because it was effecting my strategy POV. Agree to disagree again i guess lol