Pot Limit Razz

[dismalstudent99]

My friend hosted a cash game that included pot-limit razz (with antes = 2/5th of bring-in). Driving to the game, I told myself to play ultra tight and to keep the pot small and to bail out if I brick even once. Ha... so much for that plan.
During the game, people were playing loose and somewhat aggressive. When I thought I had the best hand/draw, I didn't want to let someone draw out on me for free, and I also didn't want to get bluffed too easily.
So I played as I normally would, except my betting/raising grew progressively in size.

I lost quite a bit.
One time, I lost my whole stack having played 63/2A22/2
against a loose player with a board that looked something like 86TJ. I bet on 3rd and 4th. She bet (less than 1/2 pot) into me on 5th and again on 6th street (about 1/2 pot, which put me all-in).

Question:

Regardless of whether my calls were correct, is pot-limit razz a total crapshoot? If so, why exactly? Why isn't it normally played PL?

It seems to have a terribly high luck factor, but I'm trying to figure out the exact reason why this might be so.

My guess is that it has to do with the fact that you need 5 cards to make a hand, and any 4-card draw can brick big time. That the "lead" changes so suddenly, meanwhile the pot-size/limit grows.

Thoughts?

Would any of you guys be willing to play PL Razz for any reasonable stakes against loose aggressive players?

BTW, I'd like to at least encourage the host to play Razz in "Mississippi Stud" format (4th and 5th dealt together, river card up), but he's the host...

Also, as an "advanced" question, what pot odds would I need to call on 5th?

thanks,
-ds

[SGspecial]

If Razz is -ev vs. Russian roulette, then PL Razz is like Russian roulette with a machine gun.

[DJ Sensei]

PL razz sounds like a great game to play against gamblers, if you dont tilt and you've got deep pockets to fight them with

like nl or pl holdem compared to limit, you can afford to speculate on early streets if the later streets payoff will be huge (and against these guys it probably will be). implied odds are the key concept here, if stacks are deep.

[big e]

Last time I suggested that Full Tilt have PL and CAP PL Razz most people called me a degenerate gambler [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] , but then again every one has to have a hobby. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

I've made some full houses in razz, but never quads. Congrats! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Stud games in general are seen as being poor big-bet games. I don't necessarily agree with this assessment, but when the stacks are shallow, the money tends to go in too early. When the stacks are deep, it becomes prohibitively expensive to draw.

I'd probably be willing to play pot-limit razz against pretty much anybody. I'm not saying it would be a good idea or anything, but I'd play.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
I've made some full houses in razz, but never quads. Congrats! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I've filled up more times than I can count, probably an average of once a day. I've made quads twice in standard razz, including taking down a big pot with them one time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Big Dave D]

In general, the only sustainable lowball stud game that has been played much is London lowball, where the nuts is 6432A and str8s and flushes are bad. I'm sure there is a reason for this - worse hands in general make it a better game? - but I'm not convinced. At one time it was probably *the* biggest pl game in the world. And there is stuff written about it too.

gl

dd

[SGspecial]

From the lightning strikes twice file, this is a quick lesson on how you win with quads in Razz:

Razz ($20/$40), Ante $3, Bring-In $6 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.75 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (2.75 SB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.38 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street - (4.38 BB)

Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (4.38 BB - $175)

Uncalled bet of $40 returned to SGspecial
SGspecial shows [As Ah Ad 4d Ac 7d] (three of a kind, Aces)

[Wetdog]

[ QUOTE ]
SGspecial shows [As Ah Ad 4d Ac 7d] (three of a kind, Aces)

[/ QUOTE ]

How many aces? Andy's converter has some counting issues. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

After we talked last nite I had to go back an look at that one again.

[SGspecial]

lol. The "three of a kind" is as reported by Full Tilt. Since I already had 6 cards, it picks the best 5 for me which was trips. Had the hand gone to showdown, I could have improved to a pair of aces, but I don't think it would have been good.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]