Society, Intuition and Logic

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol..I can't even remember my own personality type anymore, but I had the I and J...that's all I remember.
...............

Now I know I just went off on a tangent. I'm intuitive so I jump around a lot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Look up INFJ .
/end tangent

luckyme

[Splendour]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lol..I can't even remember my own personality type anymore, but I had the I and J...that's all I remember.
...............

Now I know I just went off on a tangent. I'm intuitive so I jump around a lot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Look up INFJ .
/end tangent

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

I was sort of thinking that. You are right. Thank you.

[madnak]

Christ, Splendour shares my MBTI type. What in the hell are the chances of that? Nobody shares my type...

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
That touches on the aspect I've been pointing to. let's use VarlosZ's situation - He knows intuitively that him mother loves him ( darn, I wish he'd have thrown in something about apple pie). We discover that she's been slowly poisoning him to collect insurance and arranging a sell him to the gypsies and keeping the pie.
which source of knowledge is considered 'right' or 'true'. His personal intuition or our objective analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Again - do you think you are referring to the same mental experience/state when you compare an insane homocidal persons love of you to an normal persons love of you. you would actually claim " yep, they both love me. oh, and one wants to kill me in a barbaric way" ?

would that make the use of the term 'love' not as comforting as VarlosZ seemed to want it to be for us?

[/ QUOTE ]

I must have done a poor job of explaining what I mean, because you still don't know what I've been saying. Part of that is your fault, though: I've mentioned mothers and love, and you've read way too much into those examples. When have I implied anything about love being comforting? Where does that intersect with anything I've said? And your apple pie reference is cute, but 100% irrelevant.

If it makes it easier, forget motherhood and love. Pick any interpersonal relationship, and any potentially related emotion. What does it feel like to be angry with a friend? Can logic do a better job of capturing that information than "intuition"?

[VarlosZ]

Here, go back to what I said here:

[ QUOTE ]
To go back to my previous example, it's the difference between knowing how your mother feels about you because you weighed the evidence and drew the appropriate conclusion, and knowing because you just feel a certain state of being to be true. In this case, the latter epistemological process tends to give a fuller and more nuanced understanding of the relationship that the former.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bolded part does not mean: "gives you more accurate information about your mother," which is what you seem to be rebutting. It means that there are aspects of the relationship and its attendant emotions which are too intangible to be captured by language, let alone logic.

[luckyme]

[ QUOTE ]
If it makes it easier, forget motherhood and love. Pick any interpersonal relationship, and any potentially related emotion. What does it feel like to be angry with a friend? Can logic do a better job of capturing that information than "intuition"?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does it feel like to be angry?
How did that get into comparing sources of knowledge about the external world. You 'knowing' your mother loves you is a claim about your mother. You feeling anger is a state you are in.

I was going to raise that point earlier and state that 'knowing my mother loves me' is often just a claim about you and not about her but since that rather brushes aside your position it didn't seem fair. Now, your 'being angry' example seems to indicate you are merely concerned with internal reports of things we are experiencing and not making claims about external facts.
??

My position is we can and do make judgments on others state of mind, intentions, motives on an intuitive basis, some of us are better at it than others in some areas and worse in some. "worse and better" refer to being right about the conclusions we reach. "See, he was trying to screw me."

'being angry' doesn't fit this at all. 'Knowing' your friend is angry by subtle clues would, and how often you are right is how we'd test it, when that is possible.

luckyme

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]

I was going to raise that point earlier and state that 'knowing my mother loves me' is often just a claim about you and not about her but since that rather brushes aside your position it didn't seem fair. Now, your 'being angry' example seems to indicate you are merely concerned with internal reports of things we are experiencing and not making claims about external facts.
??

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see how that would be confusing; I apologise. In fact, I'm talking about both internal reports and external facts. (Or, if you prefer, I'm talking about neither; language is fun.) The example I gave yesterday afternoon was about interpersonal relations -- not just your state of being or the other person's, but the relationship between the two.

At the risk of once again getting bogged down in specifics, a simple thought experiment: imagine you're from a race of intergalactic androids, and you're tasked with detailing every possible facet of human society. Now use your logic to describe what "friendship" is, spaceman. While you could describe it's apparent external effects, your approach to knowledge would severely limit your ability to understand the thing itself.

[ QUOTE ]
What does it feel like to be angry?
How did that get into comparing sources of knowledge about the external world.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't really what I was had in mind before, but there is a way in which that question speaks to knowledge of the external world: we extrapolate information from our own subjective experiences. What does it mean for my friend to be angry, and what are the likely psychological implications of his anger? Logic can tell you that his experience is probably a lot like yours, but that still leaves you reliant on a non-logical process for your information about the outside world.

[ QUOTE ]
My position is we can and do make judgments on others state of mind, intentions, motives on an intuitive basis, some of us are better at it than others in some areas and worse in some. "worse and better" refer to being right about the conclusions we reach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds fine to me.