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View Poll Results: Boise St 11-0
1 0 0%
2 1 3.85%
3 0 0%
4 0 0%
5 1 3.85%
6 1 3.85%
7 1 3.85%
8 2 7.69%
9 2 7.69%
10 2 7.69%
over 16 61.54%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:21 AM
eof eof is offline
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Default free will and god poll

I was raised 'christian' (went to lame church and had to tithe my allowance), became an outspoken atheist/materialist converting MANY baptists (i was moved to the bible belt in high school which turned me into an atheist) to atheism, and now I am not really interested/spiritual.

I don't really know what did it, there was no moment when I was like AHA! God! But its very clear to me the world isn't just cold material. I have direct experience of the 'holiness' (multi-dimensionality?) of my existence. I also have constant direct experience of my free will.

I am and always have been confounded by those who don't believe in free will. At the very minimum i can manipulate my mind a twinge.. which is free will enough to prove there is more than none. Granted, i cannot prove it to anyone else but it seems they ought to be able to do it themselves.

I cannot convince anyone that there is 'something' about our existence that is beyond the cold existence that is accepted by most lay-atheists, but it seems so counter intuitive that there is no free will.

As a side note I would happily wager an agreed upon amount that any atheist that follows a strict regiment of clean eating, occasional psychedelics (negotiable), meditation, and yoga would 'find god' or at least notice something else going on.
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  #2  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:51 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive.

Your use of "free will" is ill-defined. There are two completely different ways in which people use that term. I suspect that you haven't thought it through very well - the fact that many intelligent people believe there is no free will should be a clue that you've missed something.

I've done vegan/meditation/ayahuasca/weed. I doubt yoga would be enough to change my mind.

Your description of matter as being "cold" is just an appeal to emotion and to accepted norms in Western society. Material isn't "cold," nor is the existence accepted by most atheists.
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  #3  
Old 11-18-2007, 08:53 AM
tame_deuces tame_deuces is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

Aye. I have no idea why the materialistic atheist is classically portrayed as 'cold', there must be some old cultural remnants lying behind. I have always found a mystery and searching for good answers to be far more beautiful than blindly accepting some faith.
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  #4  
Old 11-18-2007, 08:57 AM
hitch1978 hitch1978 is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

Also, it has been proved that freewill does not exist.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #5  
Old 11-18-2007, 02:40 PM
GoodCallYouWin GoodCallYouWin is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

Athiest - No Free Will ftw.
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  #6  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:20 PM
thylacine thylacine is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

I am an atheist and I believe free will exists.

I can see how some atheists might not believe free will exists.

But it is completely irrational for theists to believe free will exists.

You need a combination poll to see the correlation in what people believe, though I'm sure it's been done here before a few times.
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  #7  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:24 PM
eof eof is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

[ QUOTE ]
Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nor are agnosticism and believing in god. i don't see your point?


[ QUOTE ]

Your use of "free will" is ill-defined. There are two completely different ways in which people use that term. I suspect that you haven't thought it through very well - the fact that many intelligent people believe there is no free will should be a clue that you've missed something.


[/ QUOTE ]

What are the two ways? I define it here as the experience of having control over our mind/body and the ability to make choices outside of external influence. Everyone has this experience afaik, yet some people chalk it up to illusion due to other metaphysical things they believe in... ie God or physical determinism. I don't believe it is an illusion and I will talk more about that in a bit.

I am well aware that many intelligent, deeply introspective people do not believe in free will. Perhaps I have missed something but it is not for lack of 'thinking it through'. Also many intelligent people do believe in free will, perhaps you are missing something?


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

I've done vegan/meditation/ayahuasca/weed. I doubt yoga would be enough to change my mind.


[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps not.

[ QUOTE ]

Your description of matter as being "cold" is just an appeal to emotion and to accepted norms in Western society. Material isn't "cold," nor is the existence accepted by most atheists.

[/ QUOTE ]

I grant that cold is probably a terrible choice to use because of the seeming appeal to emotion. It wasn't meant as that, I didn't mean anything negative by it. A better word would be meaningless? By 'cold' (again, I used the wrong word lets just assume i said 'x') I meant that the universe is just a bunch of sub-atomic particles that are arranged randomly with no deeper meaning and our existence is coincidental.

As for why I don't believe that our experience of free will is an illusion, it's because I have no reason to believe it. Simple, maybe too simple. But it seems to me people say it is an illusion for one of two reasons... either God arranged the universe in such and such way so everything is His Will, or, the universe acts according to strict laws and we are part of the universe therefore we act according to strict laws.

However, my most fundamental experience is that of free will. If nothing else I can modify images/thoughts that are floating around my head, not to mention tough moral decisions we've all had to face. The experience of free will is at the same level as logic. I experience 2+2=4 in my mind as a whole complete idea with no moving parts once i understand 2,+,4, and =. Its deep and fundamental and true. Could it be an illusion? Of course. I don't have any reason to think it though because any of the metaphysical ideas that lead me to that conclusion are built ON TOP of the underlying direct experience of logic and free will.

Besides, where science (again afaik) stands on the issue of the determinability of 'stuff' it leaves the door wide open (if not a custom mold for) free will.
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  #8  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:28 PM
willie24 willie24 is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

[ QUOTE ]

But it is completely irrational for theists to believe free will exists.


[/ QUOTE ]

are you sure? elaborate.
i don't follow- since, intuitively, the opposite seems true
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  #9  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:31 PM
soon2bepro soon2bepro is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

quick vote gone wrong.I mistakenly voted I believe in free will. I DON'T believe in free will. Geez

LOL

In fact, I would go as far as to say free will is an impossibility. That is, with logical grounds, I believe free will doesn't exist (which is not the same as not believing it exists). This is something I can't say about God, even though I would call myself an atheist.
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  #10  
Old 11-18-2007, 05:36 PM
furyshade furyshade is offline
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Default Re: free will and god poll

[ QUOTE ]
quick vote gone wrong.I mistakenly voted I believe in free will. I DON'T believe in free will. Geez

LOL

In fact, I would go as far as to say free will is an impossibility. That is, with logical grounds, I believe free will doesn't exist (which is not the same as not believing it exists). This is something I can't say about God, even though I would call myself an atheist.

[/ QUOTE ]

uh...you just bascially said "i have a good argument that free will doesn't exist" then you don't make any sort of argument
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