C-betting illogical according to the gap concept?

[jackaaron]

If someone needs a better hand to call you with, than you need to raise, and they know this, and they haven’t been in a lot of hands, why would you c-bet into them?

I realize that, if they’ve been tight, you likely have the fold equity, and if they’ve been particularly loose, you likely have less fold equity. But, by the same token, the loose player is probably not playing the gap concept, and thusly, you should bet into him, and the tight player IS going by the gap concept, and you shouldn’t bet into him. This seems to all go against conventional wisdom, so I’m thinking there is something else to the connection I’m making (false connection perhaps) between the gap concept, and c-betting.

Also, in our above statements, assume that when we c-bet, the flop hasn’t hit us at all, and that we don't have a monster like AA-QQ.

[SellingtheDrama]

You are making an assumption that your opponent is a rational book-learned poker player. I do not often make that assumption.

[Dalek]

The person called based solely on pre-flop information. When the flop comes there is a lot more information available: 60% of the final board and the fact that your hand is worth a second bet.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone needs a better hand to call you with, than you need to raise, and they know this, and they haven’t been in a lot of hands, why would you c-bet into them?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you bet in NLHE it is for one of two reasons:
(i) as a bluff - to get a better hand to fold.
(ii) for value - to get a worse hand to call at an unfavorable price

You c-bet when you whiff in an attempt to get them to fold a weak hand (or no hand at all). It is a pure bluff.

There are also situations in NLHE were the gap concept doesn't apply. If you raise PF and whiff your only chance to win the pot may be to bet (bluff), whereas if you caught a piece of the flop, giving you a hand with some showdown value, you might be more inclined to check. If you know the player acting behind you will bet when you check, you might be inclined to check-call the flop with a weaker made hand, whereas you would be betting with air. Additionally, players don't need to have a hand to call flop c-bets if they they can reasonably ascertain that the pre-flop raiser missed and will not fire a 2nd barrel on the turn or will fold to a turn donk (depending on position).

Lucky

[jackaaron]

Would it be okay to think that c-bets set up mistakes in later rounds for your opponents? For example, if you have a high c-betting frequency, and everyone knows it, and you hit hard but bet normal, they're likely to reraise you lighter than if you rarely if ever c-betted, right?

Also, it seems like another reason to c-bet is neither you nor your opponent are likely to hit, so it's like whomever is first in is more likely to take the pot.

I've mostly thought of c-bets, up to this point, as bets you want to make against opponents who have a fold button (not as many of those at lower limits, but that's a good thing). I play in micro limits, so c-bets into stations just don't seem too profitable...but they are when your opponents stick around with you until the later rounds, and they lose their discipline.

[SellingtheDrama]

Then don't always C-Bet when you miss into people that can't fold. Don't ever 'always' do something, target your plays based on your opponents.

Me personally, I tend to defend liberally against people that I see as bluffing alot of flops and trying to resteal on the turn or river.

Each player you play has a different style, and the optimal play against each is different. Spend some time thinking about how *they* are playing, and what the good counter-plays are to them, and how you can incorporate them into your normal game. It's pretty good mental exercise (I'm prone to doing this while driving) and will help you develop good thought processes about poker.

[Dalek]

You raise in no limit hold'em for several reasons:
-better hand call
-worse hand fold
-charge a drawing hand
-obtain information
-block your opponent from betting a larger amount when you want a card/showdown cheaper
-make a worse hand fold but increase your overall chance of winning the pot

C-betting is betting the flop after you bet pre-flop and can be done with a strong hand, semi-bluff or pure bluff.

Generally people C-bet when they miss but this isn't always +EV, especially at micro-stakes where bluffing is much less likely to be successful.

Betting on the flop with different holdings does disguise your hand but this isn't too important in micro-limits.

As i said, the gap concept doesn't apply between betting rounds because of the difference in information available.

[lucky_mf]

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be okay to think that c-bets set up mistakes in later rounds for your opponents? For example, if you have a high c-betting frequency, and everyone knows it, and you hit hard but bet normal, they're likely to reraise you lighter than if you rarely if ever c-betted, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Having a high c-bet frequency will help to set up this mistake - but c-betting with a super high frequency is likely (depending on the table) a big mistake in its own right.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it seems like another reason to c-bet is neither you nor your opponent are likely to hit, so it's like whomever is first in is more likely to take the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the biggest reason to c-bet when you whiff. This said, I've noticed that as I've moved up in limits knowing that your opponent probably missed is a lot better when it looks like you hit. Good players can put 2 and 2 together and will have an idea when a flop missed u. In these cases they won't need to have a hand to call your bet. They will often call with the intent of taking the pot away on the turn. Against this type of opponent it is better to c-bet less, and to be prepared to fire the turn when you do miss (assuming you are out of position).

[ QUOTE ]
I've mostly thought of c-bets, up to this point, as bets you want to make against opponents who have a fold button (not as many of those at lower limits, but that's a good thing). I play in micro limits, so c-bets into stations just don't seem too profitable...but they are when your opponents stick around with you until the later rounds, and they lose their discipline.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be c-betting somewhere between 50 and 80 percent of the time depending on a table. If you see people are not able to lay down weak hands, make a note, stop c-betting them with nothing, and value bet the crap out of them when you do make a hand. If you see people are floating you, c-bet less, and be willing to fire a 2nd barrel much of the time when you do c-bet.

Lucky