Bad Shove Pre?

tvta · #1 09-16-2007, 04:52 PM

I give no respect to either player, MP player was raising alot of pots.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $48.70
CO: $17.70
Button: $40.95
Hero: $61.85
BB: $9.35

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO raises to $1, Button calls, Hero calls, BB raises to $5, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises to $21.75, BB calls all-in $4.35, CO calls all-in $12.7.
Uncalled bets: $4.05 returned to Hero.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($37.4, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $29.05, Sidepot 1: $8.35)

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($37.4, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $29.05, Sidepot 1: $8.35)

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($37.4, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $29.05, Sidepot 1: $8.35)

Results:
Final pot: $37.4

StrikeR300 · #2 09-16-2007, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bad Shove Pre?

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I give no respect to either player, MP player was raising alot of pots.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given your read, how could anyone possibly disagree with pushing here? If you're questioning this, you may need to adjust your read/notes.

tvta · #3 09-16-2007, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bad Shove Pre?

[/ QUOTE ][ QUOTE ]
I give no respect to either player, MP player was raising alot of pots.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given your read, how could anyone possibly disagree with pushing here? If you're questioning this, you may need to adjust your read/notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

just wanted to know.... thanks

bbartlog · #4 09-16-2007, 07:42 PM

If you don't respect either player, why not try to outplay them postflop instead of doing this sort of thin-edge, high-variance coinflip? I'm not saying the shove was necessarily bad, but against the usual cast of villains I play BB will have AALx here a lot of the time, and you're not a favorite against that hand. Adding in a wider range for CO makes things look better for you but I don't think considered in isolation that your push is +EV. A236s just isn't a monster HU (basically a coinflip or worse against any AWBBs hand); its strength comes from its freeroll and/or redraw possibilities when the board comes low. I would just have called BB's raise.

samwallistea · #5 09-16-2007, 08:44 PM

I agree with bbartlog against poor opposition (I play at same level and at same site so I know) I think you'd be better off seeing a flop and then getting allin when you have a big hand. Personally I like to keep pots small preflop (no reraising) because I know my opponents aren't going to be folding, and if the flop completely misses me, I'm not committed to continue

StrikeR300 · #6 09-17-2007, 12:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
CO: $17.70
BB: $9.35
CO raises to $1, Button calls, Hero calls, BB raises to $5, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
Against '2' completly random hands A236s is a fricken monster preflop. Given stack sizes/PF pot size, why let the donks outplay hero?

Happy B-Day Sam [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

niss · #7 09-17-2007, 12:26 AM

But you are not playing two random hands, you are play two hands who raised pre-flop.

BradleyT · #8 09-17-2007, 12:32 AM

It's a hand that's a dog HU to most AAx and [many] A2 hands but it turns equity positive 3 way against many hands - including two hands that would raise preflop.

Buzz · #9 09-17-2007, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Given your read, how could anyone possibly disagree with pushing here? If you're questioning this, you may need to adjust your read/notes.

[/ QUOTE ]Gee StikeR, you make it sound as though there’s something wrong with anybody who prefers to at least see the flop before committing.

There seem to be different successful styles of play. Some successful players advocate playing very aggressively before the flop, while other successful players advocate a wait and see approach. I think all successful players are aggressive. It’s just a matter of when to apply the pressure.

How best to play one hand depends somewhat on how you play other hands. Even more importantly, how to play a hand depends on how your opponents perceive your play, and on how you read them.

In a four handed simulation against random non-folding hands, Hero has a pre-flop equity of about 35%.
Then after this particular flop, Hero’s equity increases to about 38%.
Next after this particular turn, Hero’s equity drops slightly to about 37%.
Finally after this particular river, Hero’s equity plummets to 0%.

But the numbers may be quite a bit different if we use specific cards for each opponent. In that case, usually everyone’s equity fluctuates more. I’m going to take Hero’s cards and the final board cards out of the deck, shuffle and deal out four hands for Hero’s opponents, then discard the worst of the hands. I could do this a bunch of different times, but I’m just going to do it once, and we’ll look at the fourhanded simulation equity results. Here are the four random hands:<ul type="square">Opponent #1....4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Opponent #2....A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Opponent #3....2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Opponent #4....5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][/list]Now I’m going to discard one hand. The one with three fives seems worst to me, so I’ll discard that one. And now we’ll simulate and report pot equity results at each of the four stages of play (betting rounds).

<ul type="square">Opp#1....4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]....20%....38%....12%....0%
Opp#2....A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]....27%....14%....21%....0%
Opp#3....2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]....24%....6%....30%....100%
Hero....A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]....29%....41%.... 37%....0%[/list]The slight decrease in Hero’s preflop equity (35% down to 29%) is predictable, since we chose to play the best three out of four starting hands.

Board on the river was 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]/Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

As it turned out in this non-folding simulation, since the 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the river helped nobody, Opponent #3, with two pairs, queens and fours, scooped.

Would Opponent #3 have stayed in the hand after the flop when his pot equity was only 6%, if he wasn’t all-in before the flop? I don’t know. In this particular case, it probably doesn’t make much difference for Hero, but sometimes it might. At the point Opponent #3 had only a pair of fours and a terrible low draw, could he have been pressured out of the pot?

Of course if the flop and turn and river had been different cards and the various opponents had been dealt different cards, it would have been yet another different story.

Hero, by getting his opponents all-in before the flop, gives up all skill options. Where’s the skill in everybody turning their cards up before the flop and waiting to see what fate brings? Once Hero gets his opponents all-in before the flop, he gives up any chance to out-play his opponents on later streets.

I’m with Bart on this one. Considering opponent’s flop sizes, I like calling the raise to $5 and at least looking at the flop before making a move.

If these opponents truly lack skill, then Hero should be able to out-play them even more on the various betting rounds after the flop.

Buzz

wiseheart · #10 09-17-2007, 08:02 AM

and the whole o8 subforum gets leveled by striker...