400: What a Sweet Ending

[xxrod17xx]

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Bet flop? Raise turn? You have no reason to belive you dont have the best hand here...

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Coordi and xrod:

You bet $27 on the flop and he cres you to $90. What are you going to do and why?

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Well at this point we meet that commitment threshold so I am not moving on here unless i have a plan. Its fold or raise here in my opinion. There are a lot of hands here that raise that you have beat. I think our equity in this pot is better than good..I prob raise all in.

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I think we need to reevalute the EV of getting all in with a tight player with a combination of an spr of 11 and an overpair on a drawless board.

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your prob right thats y I play 25NL and you play 400..I get to learn this lesson much cheaper [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[allinonadraw]

I understand your reasoning, but I'm still betting the flop here just about every time...a 15/12 is showing up with JJ or QQ here a lot more than AA, and you're leaving money on the table. As played, I like turn and river fine.

[VegasRunner]

I disagree with this line.

I would bet the flop 100% of the time here. I have to believe I'm ahead and each card that falls after the flop is much more likely to hurt my hand than help it. An ace can (and did) cripple your hand. Once the ace falls, any ace beats you and any action you would have gotten from tt,jj, or qq is gone.

If you get check raised on the flop, you'll have to make a decision based on your read and how likely he is to be ahead. Yes, it would be a tough decision, BUT what else do you expect to have happen when a guy slowplays his AA when you raise with KK? This hand is suppose to be an absolute disaster for you. Yes, you lost a very small amount, but only because your opponent misplayed his hand badly. If he hadn't gotten cute and reraised your preflop bet like he should have, you are in some deep s--- and in serious danger of being stacked. This donk slowplayed his aces and cost himself a good chunk of money.

I understand what you are saying about pot control and I agree that there is a time for that, but I really don't like it here when the board is paired and you are holding KK. Your kings are vunerable and a 9, while unlikely is possible. Don't get tricky here. Bet the flop and expect to take it down right there most of the time.

Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong.

[coordi]

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Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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I agree with this

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Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong.

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I disagree with this

I don't think I would call an all in. I'm probly calling to see how I feel about the turn. I think I fold a large turn bet against a passive player.

[bottomset]

lol qtip you ruined any chance of actual good discussion by posting the results

congrats you dodged a bullet this time

[CalledDownLight]

lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous

[Renton]

pretty easy bet flop

as played i'd valuebet the river for probably half pot

[QTip]

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lol at this hand...seriously, if you bet $27 and get raised then its such an easy shove that its ridiculous

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Your statement sounds as ridiculous to me as mine must have sounded to you.

Please tell me how you get to this flop with 11 times the pot left in your stack with a tight player on a drawless, paired board and say to yourself "I'm happily committed." THAT sounds ridiculous.

[QTip]

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I disagree with this line.

I would bet the flop 100% of the time here. I have to believe I'm ahead and each card that falls after the flop is much more likely to hurt my hand than help it. An ace can (and did) cripple your hand. Once the ace falls, any ace beats you and any action you would have gotten from tt,jj, or qq is gone.

If you get check raised on the flop, you'll have to make a decision based on your read and how likely he is to be ahead. Yes, it would be a tough decision, BUT what else do you expect to have happen when a guy slowplays his AA when you raise with KK? This hand is suppose to be an absolute disaster for you. Yes, you lost a very small amount, but only because your opponent misplayed his hand badly. If he hadn't gotten cute and reraised your preflop bet like he should have, you are in some deep s--- and in serious danger of being stacked. This donk slowplayed his aces and cost himself a good chunk of money.

I understand what you are saying about pot control and I agree that there is a time for that, but I really don't like it here when the board is paired and you are holding KK. Your kings are vunerable and a 9, while unlikely is possible. Don't get tricky here. Bet the flop and expect to take it down right there most of the time.

Your line happened work incredibly well in this instance, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Here's a good rule of thumb. If are dealt KK and your opponent is dealt AA, if you don't lose a ton, you probably did something wrong.

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I appreciate you putting your thoughts in here instead of a just a line or two. We need more of that.

My kings are hardly vunerable here. If he reraises me on the flop, we have a totally different hand, and I'm likely to be stacked. This is because the spr would be much greater, and I feel much more comfortable getting it in with an spr of 3.

[QTip]

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I guess I could sum my flop check up by quoting a couple lines from PNLHE:

1. Good players plan ahead to avoid tough decisions.

2. Avoid being threatened with an all-in when you aren't committed but want to see a show down.

How can we allow him to give us a tough decision? How can we allow him to threaten us with an all in?

Bet.

How can we avoid a tough decision here? How can we avoid being threatened with an all in since we're not committed and want to be at showdown?

Check.

Does it cost us much to check? Not at all. The value we miss if he called the flop can easily be made up and more by inducing bets from weaker hands. Free cards are almost a mute point here, so we're giving up little there as well.

Also, if we bet, we can expect him to make the correct response about 90% of the time.

"Bad nl players make things easy on their opponents by making plays to which the expected response is also the correct response. Bad players also don't plan ahead, and they wander into traps set by their opponents."

I'm a very active stealer in this game. If I were in the sb against me, I could have plenty of 9s. Also, pps and other hands.

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Anyone have any thoughts on what I laid out here?

In my mind, this hand shows the difference between limit thinking and nl thinking on the flop.

My hand is good here a very high percentage of the time, but that doesn't mean we bet, like we do in limit every time here. We have to think about planning this hand around commitment.

I went golfing this morning and thought a bit more about this hand. And I'm still convinced I played it well - results aside. I'd love to be proven wrong; however, I've not seen any logic spelled out to make me change my mind.