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Old 09-12-2007, 10:58 AM
WantToLearn WantToLearn is offline
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Default NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

Hi all,
well, the turn brings me the best flush, but it pairs the board. No specific reads on the villains, I know them for only a few hands. They havenīt done anything special.

Should I raise the turn?
The idea behind flat-calling is: for one, save some money if they have a boat, and then: let them hang themselves if they like their hand. As I regard them "typical" NL10 opponents for the moment, I assume they are making large river bets with more hands than they will call with.

Am I missing tons of value here, or have I finaly come to a point where I am properly carefull with a possibly second-best hand?

Any comments welcome, and thanks in advance.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.05/$0.10 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $7.20
BB: $10.00
UTG: $8.95
UTG+1: $18.55
MP1: $6.20
MP2: $23.70
Hero (MP3): $10.25
CO: $11.70
BTN: $9.85

Preflop: Hero is dealt 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, CO folds, BTN calls $0.10, SB folds, BB checks

Flop: ($0.65) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $0.20</font>, MP2 calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Turn: ($1.45) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 Players)
UTG+1 checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets $0.30</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises to $1.00</font>, Hero calls $1.00, 2 folds

River: ($3.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP2 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $2.10</font>, MP2 calls $2.10
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  #2  
Old 09-12-2007, 11:08 AM
Northern Northern is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

With 4 players lef tin the hand and a flop seen with 6 players a full house is definetly a possibility. As played I think you did fine, I doubt you would have gotten much more on the river given his c/c.

I would have semibluffed the flop and started to build the pot then, plus when the flush closes your hand isnt as olbivous as starting to bet then as others will close down at that point.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:11 AM
Jay.Yang Jay.Yang is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

I would raise the Turn and try to get as much money in as possible by the River. I wouldn't worry about MP2 having a boat. It's more likely that he has trip 9 or lower flush. As played, also bet more on the River.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:52 PM
toymach776 toymach776 is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

[ QUOTE ]
I would have semibluffed the flop and started to build the pot then

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that a flop raise here cannot be both a semibluff and for value.
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Old 09-12-2007, 01:56 PM
toymach776 toymach776 is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

I dont dislike the turn call, but a raise would be optimal. You should not be too concerned about MP1 having boat here since this would limit his range to 88, 44, 98. His line suggests he may have trips and be wary of a flush. Get money in now while you are ahead. The river may may fill him up (though unlikely) if he has trips. Another diamond will kill you action.
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:41 PM
WantToLearn WantToLearn is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

Thanks everyone!

[ QUOTE ]
You should not be too concerned about MP1 having boat here since this would limit his range to 88, 44, 98.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I donīt quite understand how being concerned would actually limit his range. Itīs more like: am I good if he doesnīt fold? Sure enough, up to a certain degree, a raise will limit the range he has if he wants to play for the raise.

More than that, the flop was seen by 5 villains.

[ QUOTE ]
I would have semibluffed the flop and started to build the pot then, plus when the flush closes your hand isnt as olbivous as starting to bet then as others will close down at that point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to discuss another aspect of a flop semi-bluff: a healthy bet on the flop might stop a set from slowplaying - they would probably shove then, even most bad players. That means, if there is a call but no raise, I can expect to be good should the flush come but the board be paired. More often, that is.
Never thought of it before, it just came to my mind.

What do you think about it?
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  #7  
Old 09-12-2007, 06:58 PM
ElectricWaffles ElectricWaffles is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

@ WTL: I see what you mean about the semibluff, but I think i'd be wary as there are a lot of people seeing the flop. I think half the reason for a semi-bluff is to win the pot right away and thats less likely because you'll have to fold out 5 other players.

It's also fairly unlikely that a third diamond will pair the board, so you might as well just call and draw rather than risk getting raised all in by a set and having to fold, you're getting the pot odds to draw anyway so I'd be tempted just to call and get aggro if I make a flush.

Maybe a semibluff would be good if there were less people seeing the flop, but I think it really depends on a lot of things so i'm not going to speculate.

Edit: As played i'd be raising the turn for sure, the guy who raised before you seems to like his hand so I think you're in a good position to get his chips in the middle now. There are cards, like another diamond, on the river that could kill any action so I'd want to make him get AI right away. The paired board sucks but i'd think trip nines are more common than 2pair/set boating up, so I'd commit to the hand right away. I would worry if the board showed 2pair on the river though and i'd usually fold if I had any money behind and I was facing aggression.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:20 PM
allinonadraw allinonadraw is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

Definitely raise the turn, bet more on the river. I would also raise the flop, but I think calling behind is OK, too.
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  #9  
Old 09-13-2007, 10:11 PM
dentist123 dentist123 is offline
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Default Re: NL10. Turn brings flush but pairs board, now what?

i think a semi-bluff raise on the flop is a bad idea in such a multi-way pot with 6 players going to the flop. the reason for that is that you will most likely chase away other flush draws, hands you want to stay with you in the hand (as it creates a profitable situation when they hit the 2nd best hand - given a situation where the board does not pair on the turn, as it does here). sets wont fold but reraise you if you semi-bluff here which is bad, as you will have to fold.
you could argue that calling flop, then betting on turn, when you hit your flush makes it more obvious that you hit but lower flushes are still in the hand and might get stacked by you. additionally sets will probably still hang around to the river to boat up (this is generally speaking of course, it doeas not apply to this particular hand where the turn paired the board).
with lets say 3 people going to the flop i might semi-bluff and raise on the flop as it is less likely for a lower flush draw to be in the hand as well.

of course i am not an expert, so i would like to know what you guys think about my reasoning.
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