$50r - Another Easy Preflop Spot That Pisses Me Off

[curtains]

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So you think he stealthmunk mucks 55 and KQs here?

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I have no idea who stealthmunk is. I got less lazy and decided to do the math. We need 40.5% against the CO or Button if they go allin. We need a bit more if the BB goes allin. Our equity against the following range:

55+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+

is 35%, thus making it a clear fold against that range. This leads me to wonder why you are asking about the KQs or 55 since they are pretty much irrelevant and villain has to be raising a lot lighter to make this a call. Also they may even decide to flat call some hands like JTs, QJs, KTs etc which are crucial for us to be in the reraising range.

We are 39.6% against the following range: 55+,A8s+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo


I crush you all at maths.

[Bakes]

i just ran a quick 66+ AJ+ range and it was like 32 or whatever, thought we needed 35%. good thing i dont claim to be good at maths, seems pretty hard.


What's the difference between 22-44 and 55 here tho?

[betgo]

Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[curtains]

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

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Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[hasuuser]

Open pushing is not +cEV here iam pretty positive.

[betgo]

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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

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Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

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Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

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Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

[betgo]

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[ QUOTE ]
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Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

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I'm pretty sure it should be cEV+. You are only pushing into 4 players.

I know what I am doing with the math. If you think it is wrong, explain exactly what is wrong.

I agree that you lose equity with 2 callers. My assumption that TT+,AJ+ always call and those are the only hands that call is not far from reality, but is not entirely accurate and very unfavorable for the push.

[Bakes]

hey curtains, can u respond to what i asked earlier about how 22-44 would be different from 55 from the pushing perspective of the CO?

[curtains]

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[ QUOTE ]
Incidently, since an open push is slightly cEV+ and makes opponents play perfectly, and you have a close decision to a reraise on a raise, what about limpreraising?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is open pushing slightly +cEV? Please prove that for me. I hate limp reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume you are always called by TT+, AJ+ and no other hands. Each player gets one of those hands 39/661 of the time. Assume of 4 players one calls 22% of the time and all pots are 2-way. You steal 1300 when everyone folds. You win 23% of the time if called, for an expected loss of 4100 chips.

.78 * 1300 - .22 * 4100 = + 114 chips.

In practice, I think the push is a little more cEV+ than this, as your hand is not face up.

I think it is pretty obvious that pushing this hand into 4 players for 16xBB with ante is cEV+, since pushing into 6 players for 10xBB is cEV+.

As for the limp, you may provoke some weaker hands to push or raise. The problem is you have to play a flop a lot. Just through that out, since nothing else works that well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not all pots will be 2 way and on average when you get the third caller you will definitely lose equity.


Also I'm pretty sure that your math is wrong, and that it should be -EV to push against that range.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it should be cEV+. You are only pushing into 4 players.

I know what I am doing with the math. If you think it is wrong, explain exactly what is wrong.

I agree that you lose equity with 2 callers. My assumption that TT+,AJ+ always call and those are the only hands that call is not far from reality, but is not entirely accurate and very unfavorable for the push.

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I've done all this math a long time ago and based on what Ive done there is no way your math is correct. I will look at it closer to figure out why.

Oh jesus christ there are antes!!! For the love of God can people post this stuff? I know the Pokerstars structure changes in all kinds of tourneys. For instance in some tourneys there are no antes in this round and some there are. Because there was zero mention of antes in the OP, I just assumed there was no antes.

So yes, pushing is probably slightly +EV, and all of the math I gave above is probably wrong.

Again I don't play online tourneys very often, and perhaps there are others that aren't exactly positive of the structure of every single tournament on every site? Can we make it a habit to actually post the ante amounts? I know it changes in the Sunday Million and etc, and that there are slower events where the antes are real small and some where they are big.

Sorry for the rant just annoyed to have wasted my time. Just hate that everyone assumes that everyone knows what the antes are all the time. Knowing the antes is absolutely crucial to determining a play here and the difference between 25 chip, 50 chip , 75 chip and 0 chip antes make a huge difference. Not mentioning it just annoys the [censored] out of me.