second pair, board begs for call

[avidlearner]

i suppose this is another spot that comes up somewhat often. in this specific situation, the flop and turn decisions seem fairly easy however usually the turn card in these spots leaves us in a tight spot. i suppose this is a genral theory question more than a specific hand question, however having a hand to look at makes it easier.

table is a LAG but guy in hand is new to the scene.

1 fold and HJ raises, folded to me and i call with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i call his autobet

turn is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

now, this is where things get odd for me....in this case we of course have to either call or raise, but what if the ace was a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? what if its a J? a brick?

i check and call

river is

9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i check and call

lets center the discussion around unknown players for now i guess.

[Surf]

Hey Avid,

I think you played this okay. Against a LAG i'm comfortably calling the river. Against a tag / thinking player we should be folding this river, since he shouldn't bet any worse hands for value and he shoudl (very) rarely have a bluffing hand here and be willing to bet it.

I think c/r'ing the turn is counterproductive because we have the Tc and would be obliged to call a 3bet. If we could fold to a 3bet it might be worth considering because it traps hands like KJ where they may make a bad call to draw to gutshot, or Qx where they may make a bad fold.

I'd look an unknown up here early on, given your line.

Surf

[mntbikr15]

I dont mind it.

I used to try and get tricky and throw in a raise somewhere, however I never folded a better hand and a three bet made me vomit. So these days Im calling these sorta boards down more V the right opponents.

[Oracle]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind it.

I used to try and get tricky and throw in a raise somewhere, however I never folded a better hand and a three bet made me vomit. So these days Im calling these sorta boards down more V the right opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that?

[lil']

I think your line is fine. Check-raising the turn is too much, because you must call a raise. The only other option would be to donk the turn, but you still have to call a raise, and you take the bluff away from him.

[Surf]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind it.

I used to try and get tricky and throw in a raise somewhere, however I never folded a better hand and a three bet made me vomit. So these days Im calling these sorta boards down more V the right opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably because his opponents were showing down stuff like KK+ regularly. Obviously we don't know what they fold but we see what we get called down by so we can make some assumptions, hopefully.

Surf