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#111
11-17-2007, 01:10 AM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] At some point long before they "climbed to the top of their career ladder" every law enforcement officer faces many situations where believing in the liberty of others, the rule of law, or even right and wrong, is going to be a liability to their career. So, they make the choice. Of course, if you don't have any of those morals things are much simpler. Have you ever had to make those decisions? The arguement that I've been here to long for my morals too have any relevance is ridiculous (to me). [/ QUOTE ] No, I haven't. All warrants go through a constitutional process, if they don't the findings of the search are thrown out of court. I may not personally agree with the reason for every warrant I've ever served, [/ QUOTE ] Why did you serve them? [ QUOTE ] but I've also never felt that I was causing irreconcilable damage to anyone either. Go to court, fight it. That's why the courts are in place. [/ QUOTE ] What do you consider irreconcilable damage? Does shutting down someones business and seizing all their assets meet the stadard? Causing someone to lose their job? Incarcerating them for any period of time when they committed no crime? How do you fight in court with no assets? How do you pay the rent and expenses generated by your business when you have no revenue and no assets? How do you reconcile things if the court does eventually throw out the warrant? Will they unbankrupt you? Will they contact all your lost customers and explain that it was all a big mistake and that you did nothing wrong? Will they decide that the person who requested or issued the bogus warrant should pay for their actions? [ QUOTE ] Can you please explain to me the details you know of the process a sworn law officer goes through to obtain a warrant? I'm just curious because I'm trying to figure out exactly who I'm dealing with here. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sure you understand the process for obtaining warrants much better than I do. However, if the process isn't subject to some level of abuse by LE and the DA, could you explain to me why the courts would ever throw out a warrant? [/ QUOTE ] Ok, I will tell you of an experience of mine that will put this all into perspective. When I first started, I was involved in the serving of a warrant which involved child pornography. Nothing was found, the man who we were serving the warrant on beat the criminal case, sued the city for $2.4 million, sued the county for $9.2 Mil, won both. (Both agencies were involved in the raid) FWIW, no personal injury was done to him, and the damage done to his property was probably around 4-5k. Now, I ask you, can you tell me he wasn't properly reconciled for this mistake? [/ QUOTE ] A) sample size is small B) Was it really a "mistake"? Did nobody in the process know they were doing something wrong. Was nobody motivated by things besides their interest in "protecting and serving"? C) The city and county didn't give him [censored]. The people of the city and county paid for this "service". D) I would certainly consider being arrested and thrown in jail as an accused pedophile a personal injury. 
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#112
11-17-2007, 01:13 AM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No one was beaten, no one was held at gun point, no one was killed. [/ QUOTE ] What do you think would have happened if the people working there had started to run? [/ QUOTE ] Thats a question with no definitive answer, although I'm sure in your mind, the answer is "They would've been gunned down". The truth, however, is much more complicated. It would've depended on the agent's pre-determined threat level assessment prior to the raid, to the agent's determination of the involvement of low level employees, to thousands of other factors that would've been involved in answering that question that I don't know the answer to because I wasn't involved in the planning of the raid. [/ QUOTE ] Handwaving. You said no one was held at gunpoint. Do you think guns would have been drawn had someone run? Yes or no. [/ QUOTE ] I already answered that. "It depends". Go through the Academy, they'll explain the 10,000+ factors that are involved in answering that question. [/ QUOTE ] No, you didn't answer it. You went straight to "gunning them down". Be serious. An FBI/secret service raid. Agents come in. Someone runs. You're seriously going to tell me you don't know if a gun is going to be unholstered? [/ QUOTE ] unholstered, probably, fired, unlikely. Reholstered once the agent realized the person wasn't running back to a desk to grab a weapon to kill the agents, yes. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] FBI agents going to a judge, taking an oath acknowledging they had knowledge of activities illegal per US code are taking place at ________ location, and _______ items are to be searched for, and if present seized, isn't even close to you robbing a bank. [/ QUOTE ] Derail. The matter of who said it was OK to do this isn't very interesting. You wanted to talk about force. Now you want to shift over to approval. Quit squirming. [/ QUOTE ] I was trying to explain the difference in the two. Obviously, it's not worth having a conversation with someone too immature to see the difference in legally serving a warrant and robbing a bank. [/ QUOTE ] Run to the ad hominem. Please, tell me the difference. We're talking about using force. Is a bank robbery where no gun is actually shown an event that involves a use of force or not? It's a simple question. If you want to claim a FBI raid without guns drawn does not involve force, please explain why a bank robbery without guns drawn does involve force. What is the difference between the two than makes one a forceless event and the other a forceful event? You say I can't tell the difference, you're implying that you DO know the difference, so enlighten me. [/ QUOTE ] FBI agents not saying "I'm going to kill you if you do not comply" would be a very good start. But in your book, they are saying that, so this argument is quickly becoming pointless. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Furthermore, you're not going to get anything from a teller by writing a note that says "Hi, I'd like some cash." The note will have to have a threat, or else the teller will not respond. Yet you already knew that, I'm sure. [/ QUOTE ] So is a "threat" a form of "force" in your book? Yes or no. [/ QUOTE ] Depends on the credibility of the threat. I say "You're dead, [censored]" after you beat me in a game of Madden. Is that a credible threat? To someone, it probably is. I'm sure you'll attack me for not saying what you want to hear, but I won't even attempt to answer complicated questions related to police force tactics, most of which are loaded questions filled with thousands of variables, with yes or no answers. [/ QUOTE ] I want *an answer*. I'm still waiting. Assume the threat is "credible enough" to get the teller to give up the money. That should have been obvious. Quit squirming. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, wearing a mask into a bank, hand in your pocket, handing a note to a teller saying "I have a gun, I will kill you if you do not give me the money" is a forceful threat.
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#113
11-17-2007, 01:41 AM
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Scam
So I went on thier website. These guys are a total scam. Not because I think what they are doing is illegal, but because of the way they price thier silver. Now, I expect them to charge some amount to cover overhead. I mean you gotta pay an expence fee for GLD or any other commodity fund. However, thiers is outrageous.
This varies month by month, but the fee they charge can be around 25-50%. A liberty dollar debuted at $10/ounce of silver in 1998. The spot price on silver was $6.25 at the time. A 37.5% haircut.
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#114
11-17-2007, 02:30 AM
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Re: Scam
[ QUOTE ]
So I went on thier website. These guys are a total scam. Not because I think what they are doing is illegal, but because of the way they price thier silver. Now, I expect them to charge some amount to cover overhead. I mean you gotta pay an expence fee for GLD or any other commodity fund. However, thiers is outrageous. This varies month by month, but the fee they charge can be around 25-50%. A liberty dollar debuted at $10/ounce of silver in 1998. The spot price on silver was $6.25 at the time. A 37.5% haircut. [/ QUOTE ] Why is it a scam? You're not forced to buy. And if they can find suckers to pay over market prices why would they care about what smarter potential customers would think? It's no more of a scam than state lotteries which are wildly successful despite the generally horrendous odds. If casinos can spread keno why can't companies charge 37.5% handling fees for silver?
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#115
11-17-2007, 02:40 AM
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Re: Scam
Like I said, I don't mean its a scam because its illegal or fraud. Assuming they actually have the silver in a vault somwhere, this enterprise seems perfectely legal to me.
I mean that it is a scam in the manner that you would be [censored] retarded to buy them. You can go buy GLD and pay the .25% management fee rather then this stuff. As a collectible I think it is fine, but it sure as hell isn't a store of value.
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#116
11-17-2007, 02:51 AM
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Re: Scam
[ QUOTE ]
I mean that it is a scam in the manner that you would be [censored] retarded to buy them. You can go buy GLD and pay the .25% management fee rather then this stuff. As a collectible I think it is fine, but it sure as hell isn't a store of value. [/ QUOTE ] Again no one is forcing anyone to buy on their terms. You can say it's a very bad deal/offer, which it certainly is. But that doesn't make it a scam unless they are being deceptive in some way *other* than by not telling customers that they could buy for less, which most businesses generally don't, or unless they are taking advantage of truly retarded people by specifically marketing to them.
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#117
11-17-2007, 03:18 AM
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Re: Scam
We are probably just arguing semantics over the word scam. I would consider a heck of a lot of things scams. For instance, I think most mutual funds are scams compared to index funds because they consistently underperform by 2%. I think when you talk about scam your talking about an actual fraud.
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#119
11-17-2007, 04:50 AM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
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You can have laws without government. You can have agencies without government. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I´m gonna tap my shoes and wish to get home to Kansas. I used to be libertarian, but now Im ashamed when I see what kind of lunatics who really make out the libertarian people. I honestly admire Ron Paul on some of hes points, but hes following scares me more than the Waco-crowd
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#120
11-17-2007, 06:04 AM
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Re: Liberty Dollar office raided
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You can have laws without government. You can have agencies without government. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I´m gonna tap my shoes and wish to get home to Kansas. I used to be libertarian, but now Im ashamed when I see what kind of lunatics who really make out the libertarian people. I honestly admire Ron Paul on some of hes points, but hes following scares me more than the Waco-crowd [/ QUOTE ] There are plenty of moderate libertarians. The thing is that they tend to either vote the lesser of two evils or throw up their hands in disgust and ignore politics altogether. It's rare to see more moderate types highly vocal about ANY political view, but it's especially true when those views aren't mainstream.
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