The difference between the 25/50 blind level and the 50/100 level

[splashpot]

Here are 2 hands where I have more than 10xBB, but I feel like the only good play is to push:

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t695)
UTG+1 (t853)
MP1 (t422)
MP2 (t1955)
Hero (t660)
Button (t1360)
SB (t990)
BB (t1065)

Preflop: Hero is in CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero t660 (All-in)</font>

And this hand happened one orbit later. Note that the blinds go up to 50/100 next hand.

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t990)
UTG+1 (t770)
MP1 (t1731)
MP2 (t522)
CO (t1880)
Hero (t660)
SB (t482)
BB (t965)

Preflop: Hero is in Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero t660 (All-in)</font>

Now I'm not so much asking for advice on these hands, but rather to discuss the transition between the 25/50 level and the 50/100 level. In my mind, this is one of the most crucial parts of the Party 800 chipers.

In both of my hands above, I had folded for most of the tournament and this had left me with 660 chips. This size chipstack is fairly common for me at this blind level. At first glance it looks like I have a little over 13xBB. Which seems fine, you know....good for this level, not super desperate.

But when you consider that the blinds go up to 50/100 in a few hands, my situation becomes much more desperate. Instead of 13xBB, I'm left with 6.6xBB. That's a HUGE difference.

25/50 to 50/100. That's a 100% increase. At no other point in the tournament is there such a large increase in blinds percentage wise (aside from 10/15 to 15/30).

This is the main reason why I feel aggressive play is absolutely essential during the 25/50 level. I find myself pushing during this level with 13-15xBB very often. I think that stealing blinds here is much more important than it seems. I think it helps a lot and makes a big difference in preperation for the 50/100 level.

[HappyHotdog]

i think that is a very valid point and would like to hear what someone else thinks

[Awesemo]

I feel like with that many BB's you should be raising it to 3x bb instead of pushing in these hands, just because the risk/reward is better. Then, if someone reraises you allin, you obviously fold these hands.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like with that many BB's you should be raising it to 3x bb instead of pushing in these hands, just because the risk/reward is better. Then, if someone reraises you allin, you obviously fold these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason people use the 10xBB rule is because if you raise, then fold to an all in, you leave yourself crippled. You're better off pushing to maximize your fold equity.

Even though you have 13xBB, the same principle applies here. Look at my KT hand above. If I make a standard 3xBB raise to 150, then fold to an all in, I only leave myself with 510 chips. When the blinds go up, I'll only have 5xBB and I'd already be in desperation mode. I think it's much better to push and maximize your fold equity here.

[Bungler]

This is an interesting situation I've been thinking about lately too. The reason I find it interesting is because for me this is not a pre-flop question. Tons of players at the low limits are going to defend their blinds with lots of different hands. Then you are stuck in a bad spot of whether to c-bet or not on the flop when you miss because if you do, and you are called you are basically pot committed with nothing. Just one of the considerations that makes me lean toward pushing pre-flop.

[Ignignok]

I agree with you. Playing post-flop sucks. 90% of the Party SNG game is played pre-flop.

Raising 3x doesn't seem like a good option here. I am definitely in an all-in or fold mentality in this spot, as you were.

[Scuba Chuck]

I think Nick B wrote an excellent post a while back explaining why raising to something less than allin is better. I understand the situation you're in though, and I still don't do it (often).

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Nick B wrote an excellent post a while back explaining why raising to something less than allin is better. I understand the situation you're in though, and I still don't do it (often).

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you remember any of the reasons he gave? I'm not saying my way is right, I just feel very uncomfortable raising anything less than all in, mostly because of the 100% increase in blinds.

[fluorescenthippo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like with that many BB's you should be raising it to 3x bb instead of pushing in these hands, just because the risk/reward is better. Then, if someone reraises you allin, you obviously fold these hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason people use the 10xBB rule is because if you raise, then fold to an all in, you leave yourself crippled. You're better off pushing to maximize your fold equity.

Even though you have 13xBB, the same principle applies here. Look at my KT hand above. If I make a standard 3xBB raise to 150, then fold to an all in, I only leave myself with 510 chips. When the blinds go up, I'll only have 5xBB and I'd already be in desperation mode. I think it's much better to push and maximize your fold equity here.

[/ QUOTE ]


ive been doing this lately with 8-13 x BB. i just hate C betting a flop with AK and having to fold leaving yourself 8 BB which shortly becomes 4 x BB.

[Bazuul]

I'd bet 3xBB then push any flop. You can win the blinds a lot of times at little risk and you can fold to someone pushing in behind you. I can't think of many hands that would push over a PFR of 3xBB without also calling a preflop push. I think the extra FE you may have by pushing doesn't offset the risk of getting knocked out of the tournament with 13xBB stack.

If you raise 3xBB then push after the flop, you give them two chances to fold. It's a lot easier for villains to fold AK to a push on a rag flop than it is for them to fold it to a preflop push from late position. Less risky for you as well.

And if they do push over your preflop raise and you fold, sure you'll be "crippled" but having 500 chips sure beats the hell out of having 0. And the upside is you won't be agonizing over your next push... it'll be easy!