suppose to fold if you only flop a pair?

Bicycles_Biatch · #1 08-02-2007, 01:40 PM

The J10 question got me thinking about suited connectors in general.

obviously we all know we aren't calling with J10, 89, or 67 suited looking to spike a 10, 8, or 7...

However, assuming we do [and said pair is top pair]... how many additional outs do you feel we need to have in order to justify calling against some serious flop action?

is our 2 pair draw enough to constitute calling 2 cold? 3 cold?

Is our 2 pair draw plus a back door flush and straight enough to call 2 cold? 3 cold?

Is our two pair + OE straight draw + back door flush draw enough to call 3 cold? 4 cold?

Just wanted to get some discussion going on how much heat you'll take when you flop a pair with draw with suited connectors.... this seems to be where I struggle (based on what I'm reading).

Sometimes you obviously flop what my friends and I refer to as the Jesus draw... something like a pair and an open ended straight flush draw... i think we are obviously seeing the river here.... but what about the following example.

25-50 game at HP in CA... tougher-tighter game than normal... I'm looking for a table change to stud BTW.

Anyways, TAG raises under the gun and 2 people call.

You're on the button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and expect one of the blinds to call.

Based on the level of play today... you give UTG credit for AK or better and you know the callers have stuff like mid pairs or suited aces... they ain't callin' with total crap today.

I call, BB calls, 5 to the flop.

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG bets, one limper folds, 2nd limper raises, two bets to you...

do you take heat here with TP, and two concealed back door draws?

Anyways, I call, blind folds, UTG calls.

Turn is a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG checks, limper bets, I call, UTG raises, limper 3 bets... 2 bets back to us cold.

easy call? Fold as I'm probably up against a set and/or a pair and maybe a bigger flush draw? raise for value since in L.A. you can only go 4 bets and most likely I have 13 clean outs and definately will get called in two spots if I make my river straight or flush?

River is possibly the worse card or the best card in the deck for me... another 7.

UTG bets, limper calls... I ? call and pray? fold, I'm obviously beat? raise for value but fold to a 3 bet?

Anyways, this hand actually did occur and I've been meaning to get some feedback... but also, I think is shows the compounding problem that occurs from playing suited-connectors against pre-flop raisers.

Maybe yet another huge flaw in my game is making that first call on the flop... I don't know???

rafiki · #2 08-02-2007, 01:42 PM

seen Schneid's videos ? Although it's very much 6max related, a lot of that applies to what you're asking. The man knows how to peel, lemme tell ya.

Bicycles_Biatch · #3 08-02-2007, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
seen Schneid's videos ? Although it's very much 6max related, a lot of that applies to what you're asking. The man knows how to peel, lemme tell ya.

[/ QUOTE ]

no... I haven't... link?

Or is it for purchase only

rafiki · #4 08-02-2007, 01:59 PM

ya it's for purchase off cardrunner or whatever. Stuff he pulls blows my mind draw wise. Although I think you could seriously infect your 10 handed game watching his 6 handed. But I'm absolutely jonesing to play 6 handed again now. I would pause the video before he'd act and try and predict what he'd do. haha even after 2 videos worth I'd still say "fold" and he's calling. It's pretty entertaining.

LukeSLTS · #5 08-02-2007, 02:05 PM

What a monster post.

I think you can 3bet the flop when the action is still multiway. The turn is a call because it looks like you have 12 good outs to a straight or flush (maybe not the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) and the pot is big enough. I don't think a raise is going to give you any extra value here. You need to hit to win and you aren't getting a free showdown. On the river I would want to raise but then I know I wouldn't be able to fold to a 3bet so I would just call.

I see your point about how expensive this situation can get with having to throw in 5 big bets by the river but I just can't see dropping this hand on the flop when you may just be against two overpairs.

Bicycles_Biatch · #6 08-02-2007, 10:11 PM

no other comments?

27offsooot · #7 08-02-2007, 10:18 PM

Flop: raise >>>>>> call > fold
Turn: I would've raised if i just called flop. As played, of course u have to call the extra two. The other options don't make sense.
River: Did UTG 4 bet turn? If so, I would just call, unless UTG is retarded. If UTG called three bet and then donked river, of course u raise.

And if u get three bet, call, accuse him of collusion and lose.

andyfox · #8 08-02-2007, 10:39 PM

Problem here is that with TAG UTG it's going to be expensive to draw to your hand and there are going to be a lot of available overcards to put you into trouble. The dilemmas you faced in your example hand are illustrative. To me the problem here is pre-flop; I prefer to save my suited connector plays for loose, passive opponents.