Should we abide by unjust laws?

[bkholdem]

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Without reading any of the replies, my gut tells me that unless you have a infallible guide to morality (and I do not believe one exists) then you should obey unjust laws and work to change them legally.

Here in the United Kingdom, we have a very comprehensive welfare system but the healthy moan because they have to pay through their taxes for the ill to go to hospital, those without children moan because they have to pay through their taxes for the upkeep of state schools so that other people's children can get an education. Nobody is allowed an opt out. If we all broke the law when it suited us then: anarchy.

I liked your post. I think I would like your friend.

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You use the word anarchy like it is a bad word. I am an anarchist and think the sooner we achieve anarchy the better.

When there is an unjust law why is it better to start writing letters in the hope that the law may be changed at some point in the distant future? Why should I have to suffer injustice?

[chezlaw]

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Without reading any of the replies, my gut tells me that unless you have a infallible guide to morality (and I do not believe one exists) then you should obey unjust laws and work to change them legally.

Here in the United Kingdom, we have a very comprehensive welfare system but the healthy moan because they have to pay through their taxes for the ill to go to hospital, those without children moan because they have to pay through their taxes for the upkeep of state schools so that other people's children can get an education. Nobody is allowed an opt out. If we all broke the law when it suited us then: anarchy.

I liked your post. I think I would like your friend.

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You use the word anarchy like it is a bad word. I am an anarchist and think the sooner we achieve anarchy the better.

When there is an unjust law why is it better to start writing letters in the hope that the law may be changed at some point in the distant future? Why should I have to suffer injustice?

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The huge mistake being made is believing that a healthy democracy can be sustained by people obeying the rules and arguing for change.

Maybe in utopia but in the real world it simply doesn't work, governments love making laws and they just keep on and on making them until they hit too much resistence. Some of these laws are either bad in principle or badly implemented and the only real pressures on governments to make good laws is a) the ballot box and b) an inability to enforce bad laws. The ballot box is far too crude for numerous reasons so outside utopia we have to keep the government in check by ignoring bad laws - in the extreme we could have a moral duty to disobey bad laws - 'only obeying orders' is not an excuse even if those orders have legal status.

chez

[AdamL]

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But what if that is what I want if I believe the law is unjust? I thought you meant that I would be outside of the protection of all laws, not just the law that I am breaking. I would be fine with that.

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I do in fact mean the whole law. Did you think I was only considering whether it is good to break "unjust laws" (which apparently for you are things like jaywalking and the legal drinking age - lol) based on the calculation of your instant punishment vs. gratification? That is precisely what is wrong with your beliefs. You have no respect for the small within the great, which indicates you are simply unaware of how great that which you tread on so lightly may be. Of course, it isn't all that powerful anymore. The lion is shaved and bound and this thread is part of that disease.

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I guess I would say that there is always a 'better' and a 'worse' but not necessarily a right and a wrong.

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By what standard are things better or worse?

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If you gave me a specific instance of child molestation or something like that maybe I could give you an answer about whether it is right or wrong.

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I was trying to point out the absurdity of claiming that no singular act can be ever called right or wrong. That you want an example of a child molestation to tell me whether is right or wrong is really missing the point. It is always wrong.

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I'm sure there are some things that I would say are "always right" or "always wrong" but I'm fairly sure there are very very few of these situations.

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That is false. I think you haven't really thought about it long enough, or looked for an education in the subject.

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Did you not choose this ultimate moral law though? Where did you learn it from? How can you be sure it's accurate?

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I choose to obey it. That is the extent of it. I choose to be a good person and obey the moral law. It is not mine, I am pledging myself to it. I didn't invent it or colour it to suit me. It isn't my own idea or catered to my particular faults and desires. It is simply there, and has been for a long time, and I can see that it is nobler than my insignificant reasons for breaking it. I also can see clearly (thankfully) that is much better for my soul to be morally good than to calculate my personal advantage before acting according to the moral law.

How can I be sure it is accurate - I don't think it really needs much defense, I was aware of the moral law long before I understood why it is accurate and have found that following it reveals plenty. Sometimes my explanations for why some things are as they are turn out wrong, but the moral law stands untouched. It doesn't depend on my ability to divine it.

[bkholdem]

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Did you not choose this ultimate moral law though? Where did you learn it from? How can you be sure it's accurate?

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I choose to obey it. That is the extent of it. I choose to be a good person and obey the moral law. It is not mine, I am pledging myself to it. I didn't invent it or colour it to suit me. It isn't my own idea or catered to my particular faults and desires. It is simply there, and has been for a long time, and I can see that it is nobler than my insignificant reasons for breaking it. I also can see clearly (thankfully) that is much better for my soul to be morally good than to calculate my personal advantage before acting according to the moral law.

How can I be sure it is accurate - I don't think it really needs much defense, I was aware of the moral law long before I understood why it is accurate and have found that following it reveals plenty. Sometimes my explanations for why some things are as they are turn out wrong, but the moral law stands untouched. It doesn't depend on my ability to divine it.

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This sounds an awful lot like the way people explain religion and God.

How do you explain all the moral disagreements that people have?

Are you the most morally enlightened person on the planet or are there people more morally enlightened than you? How do you know who is right when 2 or more morally enlightened people disagree if there is but one exact morally correct choice and action at all times?

Have you ever made a moral mistake? Do you think you will make any in the future?

How do you 'know' what is right when faced with difficult circumstances?

[Taraz]

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I do in fact mean the whole law. Did you think I was only considering whether it is good to break "unjust laws" (which apparently for you are things like jaywalking and the legal drinking age - lol) based on the calculation of your instant punishment vs. gratification? That is precisely what is wrong with your beliefs. You have no respect for the small within the great, which indicates you are simply unaware of how great that which you tread on so lightly may be. Of course, it isn't all that powerful anymore. The lion is shaved and bound and this thread is part of that disease.

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But this is the whole point of the thread. By your system, I will be following laws that I believe to be unjust. I'm not calculating things based on my punishment vs. my reward. I think that giving anybody a ticket for crossing the street where there are no cars is ridiculous. I know the law is there to protect pedestrians and drivers. But if I look both ways, it's 3am, and there are no cars on the road, I'm fairly confident that I'm not acting immorally.

All laws aren't good laws. Period. This whole talk of I have no respect for the small within the great is nonsense. You can claim that I'm not righteous enough to realize which laws are ridiculous, but some laws are just plain bad laws.

What about that guy who went to jail for having sex with his girlfriend when he was 17 and she was 16? When he turned 17 was he supposed to end his relationship because it was immoral all of a sudden?

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By what standard are things better or worse?

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By how much damage they cause others and yourself.

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I was trying to point out the absurdity of claiming that no singular act can be ever called right or wrong. That you want an example of a child molestation to tell me whether is right or wrong is really missing the point. It is always wrong.

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Everything isn't absolute like that though. Every act isn't either good or bad. You might believe it is bad to do drugs. But what if I'm an undercover officer trying to catch drug dealers and they will be suspicious if I don't take a hit? Should I abstain from doing one line of cocaine because it is immoral even if it would jeopardize my safety and the investigation?

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I'm sure there are some things that I would say are "always right" or "always wrong" but I'm fairly sure there are very very few of these situations.

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That is false. I think you haven't really thought about it long enough, or looked for an education in the subject.

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List ten general actions that you think are always right or always wrong.

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I choose to obey it. That is the extent of it. I choose to be a good person and obey the moral law. It is not mine, I am pledging myself to it. I didn't invent it or colour it to suit me. It isn't my own idea or catered to my particular faults and desires. It is simply there, and has been for a long time, and I can see that it is nobler than my insignificant reasons for breaking it. I also can see clearly (thankfully) that is much better for my soul to be morally good than to calculate my personal advantage before acting according to the moral law.

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So everyone agrees on this moral law? Where did you hear of this law? Was it innate? You're basically saying that laws they had 2000 years ago are still applicable today.

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How can I be sure it is accurate - I don't think it really needs much defense, I was aware of the moral law long before I understood why it is accurate and have found that following it reveals plenty. Sometimes my explanations for why some things are as they are turn out wrong, but the moral law stands untouched. It doesn't depend on my ability to divine it.

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Where can I get this blueprint for life? Different denominations of the same religion can't even decide on one way of acting.

[AdamL]

"Damage" is really shallow and insufficient but at least a starting place for some kind of standard of good and bad.

No, I won't do the highschool debate with you and meet each stupid challenge like listing 10 actions which are just (it is not hard, either, and I think it's funny you need it listed for you - lol) nor am I going to do the whole idiot routine with the other fellow because duh, of course I know people disagree on moral law and don't think I'm the most enlightened person ever. Really not the words of someone seeking knowledge but rather trying to win their viewpoint for their own gratification.

To be honest I think I underestimated the challenge ahead of me here. But you have the Plato reference.

[ShakeZula06]

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I do in fact mean the whole law. Did you think I was only considering whether it is good to break "unjust laws"

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maybe you should read the thread title.
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(which apparently for you are things like jaywalking and the legal drinking age - lol)

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These laws aren't unjust?
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You have no respect for the small within the great, which indicates you are simply unaware of how great that which you tread on so lightly may be. Of course, it isn't all that powerful anymore. The lion is shaved and bound and this thread is part of that disease.


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What the hell are you talking about here?
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That is false. I think you haven't really thought about it long enough, or looked for an education in the subject.

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Then perhaps you can explain it for us smart guy.
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I choose to be a good person and obey the moral law.

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What is this moral law?

[Taraz]

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"Damage" is really shallow and insufficient but at least a starting place for some kind of standard of good and bad.

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So could you please define right and wrong for me? I mean, what is a 'good' action and what is a 'bad' action. You might think I'm being facetious, but I would honestly like to hear your answer here.

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No, I won't do the highschool debate with you and meet each stupid challenge like listing 10 actions which are just (it is not hard, either, and I think it's funny you need it listed for you - lol)

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I don't think it's a 'high school challenge'. I'm not talking about 10 specific scenarios, I mean 10 actions in general. I'm sure you would say murder, rape, and child molestation, but I really doubt that you could come up with too many more. There just aren't that many actions that are inherently 'evil'.

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nor am I going to do the whole idiot routine with the other fellow because duh, of course I know people disagree on moral law and don't think I'm the most enlightened person ever. Really not the words of someone seeking knowledge but rather trying to win their viewpoint for their own gratification.


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I think we were just trying to point out that the absolute 'moral law' you refer to isn't absolute or agreed upon. We're trying to show you that there is actually no way of choosing which moral law to follow rationally. It's comes down to a faith based choice.

[AdamL]

But Taraz, I'm not asking to be shown anything. I'm trying to tell you what I think I ought to regarding your question. What is the point in asking, you ought to consider why you did. But don't worry about my state of information, I'm fine. Take the advice instead.

[Taraz]

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But Taraz, I'm not asking to be shown anything. I'm trying to tell you what I think I ought to regarding your question. What is the point in asking, you ought to consider why you did. But don't worry about my state of information, I'm fine. Take the advice instead.

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Well the conversation has shifted a little, I will admit that.

I came into this thread asking others who shared my view to help me flesh it out and articulate it better. People, including you, have helped me do that, and now I'm spitting it out [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. The title of this thread was more of an attention grabber than an actual question I was asking. In my OP I pretty much state that I don't think we should abide by unjust laws all the time.

With respect to our exchanges, I hope it is clear that I'm genuinely interested in my friend's logic and yours. I truly don't get it and I really want to. I hope that you will answer some of the questions I posed in previous posts because I don't like failing to understand other people's positions.