Pumping strong draws on the flop

[Guitierez]

Here are two spew-suspicious hands where I was capping on the come. The table was normally loose for these stakes, I saw a lot of coldcalling before. I flopped two strong draws with 12+ outs, and was conscious of my equity edge. What do you think, was it OK to shovel my value-added Sklansky-bucks into the pot?

I remember milesdyson in this outstanding thread saying: your share is not 1/(# players in hand). that is the absolute best case. Important is the number after the flop betting round, so raising is only right if it doesn't kick opponents out.


Hand 1 FD with top pair

PokerStars $0.10/$0.20 Limit Hold'em - 10 players
converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#FF0000">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (11.99 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#FF0000">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, SB calls, <font color="#FF0000">BB raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero caps</font>, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.


Hand 2 Straight flush draw

PokerStars $0.10/$0.20 Limit Hold'em - 9 players
converted by DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: (5.99 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#FF0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#FF0000">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls, <font color="#FF0000">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Button calls, <font color="#FF0000">Hero caps</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Your thoughts?

[KitCloudkicker]

raise hand 1 preflop otherwise 100% standard.

[calidris]

[ QUOTE ]
raise hand 1 preflop otherwise 100% standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because?

[RemyXO]

I am not raising hand #1 preflop. I want button and the blinds to come along, not knock them out. Axs wants a nice multiway pot. It wouldn't be a value raise either, since Axs is not a powerhouse, lol.

As far as raising the flop, I don't like it. Your strategy should be maximizing the amount of money that goes into the pot, your raise would more often than not knock out BTN and SB and maybe even UTG+2. They were dumb enough to call 2 cold, but that won't happen often. I would call the bet.

Hand 2 is played awesomely. Lead/call/cap. Right strategy to maximize the pot size without knocking out opponents.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as raising the flop, I don't like it. Your strategy should be maximizing the amount of money that goes into the pot, your raise would more often than not knock out BTN and SB and maybe even UTG+2. They were dumb enough to call 2 cold, but that won't happen often. I would call the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's only two people to act after Hero, Button and SB. If they both call, that's 2 SB, and that's no guarantee. If even one of them cold-call Hero's raise, there's 2 SB plus getting another bet from everyone thus far, or if Villain caps it, getting more from that.

You said the goal is to get the most money in, right? If Hero calls he gets 2 SB in max, unless Button or SB raise and he has no indication that will happen. But instead he raised and got 10 of opponents' SB into the pot. Raising &gt; calling.

[calidris]

[ QUOTE ]
Your strategy should be maximizing the amount of money that goes into the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this in this hand. If you had two spades with show down value then fine. With Axs you want to see a cheap flop.

[RemyXO]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your strategy should be maximizing the amount of money that goes into the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this in this hand. If you had two spades with show down value then fine. With Axs you want to see a cheap flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] This is standard pot equity move with nut flush draw
Actually, there were quite a few responses to posts lately where people got confused with equity raises ... Do we need to post a "Raising Draws For Value" topic?

[RemyXO]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as raising the flop, I don't like it. Your strategy should be maximizing the amount of money that goes into the pot, your raise would more often than not knock out BTN and SB and maybe even UTG+2. They were dumb enough to call 2 cold, but that won't happen often. I would call the bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
There's only two people to act after Hero, Button and SB. If they both call, that's 2 SB, and that's no guarantee. If even one of them cold-call Hero's raise, there's 2 SB plus getting another bet from everyone thus far, or if Villain caps it, getting more from that.

You said the goal is to get the most money in, right? If Hero calls he gets 2 SB in max, unless Button or SB raise and he has no indication that will happen. But instead he raised and got 10 of opponents' SB into the pot. Raising &gt; calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

The goal is to get the most money in while retaining positive pot equity edge . If they both fold, you don't have equity edge anymore. I think you are a little results oriented here - given that they both called the raise, of course it turned out to be the optimal move. How often is that going to happen?

If the hero stopped at the decision to raise or call the flop, what would you advise? I'd advise calling and bringing along those left to act. Unless they are donkeys and willing to call 2 cold with trash ... in which case you raise it up [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


EDIT: March, re-read your post again and I have to agree with you, you sonofagun [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] In this situation raising &gt; calling in the long run.

[Buzz-cp]

hand 1: raising flop shuts people out. We want them in. Also, preflop limp IS standard.
hand 2: bet/raise the flop at all opportunity. i.e. when button raises, 3-bet.

[BigBadBabar]

i disagree with you guys minorly. a6s isn't a raise pf.
however postflop i do jam them both up just as op did.