Is Neo-Atheism The Way to Go? [Poll]

[DblBarrelJ]

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I sometimes wonder if the very act of debating is where rational thinkers go wrong. You wouldn't debate somebody on witchcraft. You'd simply laugh in their face and move on. If they continued to spout their beliefs in your face (and tried to influence your children and others), then you'd probably get kinda nasty about it, no? But I don't think you'd be advocating that the country start engaging in formal debates if witchcraft ever threatened to become part of the science curriculum in your kid's public shool, would you?

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This is a great point, unfortunately, it's not even the point.

If someone wants to shove their religion down your throat, sure, be as rude as you personally feel you need to be. But don't pretend it's all in self-defense, when it clearly isn't. More often than any of you will admit, it is the theist blindsided by a rude, obnoxious attack by the atheist.

Maybe I just have a different standard of raising and a higher standard of social skills than many of you, but if you were to ask me the question "Is it acceptable to mock people for X" I would cut you off at the word "people" with a resounding "NO!". Sure, we all lose control of our tempers from time to time, but to accept and embrace the fact that this group (theists) are acceptable to mock by the atheist, in my view, gives the theist the moral high ground straight from the beginning.

I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

[kurto]

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If someone wants to shove their religion down your throat, sure, be as rude as you personally feel you need to be. But don't pretend it's all in self-defense, when it clearly isn't. More often than any of you will admit, it is the theist blindsided by a rude, obnoxious attack by the atheist.

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I would argue that the reverse is more common. In many communities, atheists are simply shunned. Remember, in our country atheists are the ones people would NEVER vote into office. They're considered the least desireable class of people. Many of the theists on this board are fond of insisting that atheists have no morals.

There certainly are rude atheists. But I think its unfair to suggest they have any kind of monopoly or even lead in the field of rudeness.

[Case Closed]

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In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

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Thanks...now I have to watch V for Vendetta again.

[luckyme]

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I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

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Around here it takes more of the form of " a man of his word" is all you really have. That takes in sincerity.
I'm a very quiet spoken person and I don't hand out insults or praise wantonly. When I say to a bridge partner, "well played" it actually means that they did something exceptional, not that they followed suit neatly. And they know that about me and seem to appreciate it.
When I say, "I respect his position" I intend it to mean that it has considerable merit and is well constructed even if personally not for me ( much as I do to non-extremist political left or right positions). To say I respect a belief in an ancient myth ( etc, etc) would render the concept vapid and it would be like complimenting my partner for not revoking.

I don't know how much disagreement there would be in our actual interactions but I certainly want my 'respect' to be respected. In the sense that if a friend says, "well, luckyme respects Guillies position" that it is taken as a positive comment on Guillies position.

luckyme

[vhawk01]

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I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around here it takes more of the form of " a man of his word" is all you really have. That takes in sincerity.
I'm a very quiet spoken person and I don't hand out insults or praise wantonly. When I say to a bridge partner, "well played" it actually means that they did something exceptional, not that they followed suit neatly. And they know that about me and seem to appreciate it.
When I say, "I respect his position" I intend it to mean that it has considerable merit and is well constructed even if personally not for me ( much as I do to non-extremist political left or right positions). To say I respect a belief in an ancient myth ( etc, etc) would render the concept vapid and it would be like complimenting my partner for not revoking.

I don't know how much disagreement there would be in our actual interactions but I certainly want my 'respect' to be respected. In the sense that if a friend says, "well, luckyme respects Guillies position" that it is taken as a positive comment on Guillies position.

luckyme

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Respecting everyone equally equals respecting no one meaningfully. What DblBarrelJ seems to be saying is that your BASELINE level of respect should be higher. Unfortunately, I dont really know how to show SUPER DUPER respect for things that, you know, I actually respect. So its much easier to simply show less respect for things I have less respect for.

[Lestat]

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I sometimes wonder if the very act of debating is where rational thinkers go wrong. You wouldn't debate somebody on witchcraft. You'd simply laugh in their face and move on. If they continued to spout their beliefs in your face (and tried to influence your children and others), then you'd probably get kinda nasty about it, no? But I don't think you'd be advocating that the country start engaging in formal debates if witchcraft ever threatened to become part of the science curriculum in your kid's public shool, would you?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great point, unfortunately, it's not even the point.

If someone wants to shove their religion down your throat, sure, be as rude as you personally feel you need to be. But don't pretend it's all in self-defense, when it clearly isn't. More often than any of you will admit, it is the theist blindsided by a rude, obnoxious attack by the atheist.

Maybe I just have a different standard of raising and a higher standard of social skills than many of you, but if you were to ask me the question "Is it acceptable to mock people for X" I would cut you off at the word "people" with a resounding "NO!". Sure, we all lose control of our tempers from time to time, but to accept and embrace the fact that this group (theists) are acceptable to mock by the atheist, in my view, gives the theist the moral high ground straight from the beginning.

I don't care how stupid you think the beliefs they hold are, that's not the point. The point is to be a dignified human being. I have respect for some atheists, as well as some theists for the dignity and social skills they've shown, and I've also lost alot of respect for many otherwise intelligent atheists as well as quite a few theists for the childishness and pure lack of respect for others they've shown.

In this world, when you've lost your dignity, you've nothing else in my view.

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Your point would be well taken (with me at least), if religious was truly harmless. But we are living in a world where certain people would slice off your head if given the chance, because you don't believe what they do. It's not hard to imagine what will happen when these people get their hands on nukes.

To ridicule the extremists while tolerating and giving a free pass to the moderates is inconsistent. They are the same illogical paths. One group just happens to be further down it than the other. That's all.

[chezlaw]

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To ridicule the extremists while tolerating and giving a free pass to the moderates is inconsistent. They are the same illogical paths. One group just happens to be further down it than the other. That's all.

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the more ridiculous the beliefs the more ridicule they deserve.

Its not generally individuals who are being mocked but the belief systems and religous authorities. We don't follow someone around pouring scorn on them for being christian but taking the piss out of ideas like virgin births, popes, dinasours on the ark etc etc is all good stuff.

The only time we need to pick on individuals who aren't professionals (popes, priests, vicars etc) is when they are dishonest (e.g IDers) or odious (persecute others)

chez

[Lestat]

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To ridicule the extremists while tolerating and giving a free pass to the moderates is inconsistent. They are the same illogical paths. One group just happens to be further down it than the other. That's all.

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the more ridiculous the beliefs the more ridicule they deserve.

Its not generally individuals who are being mocked but the belief systems and religous authorities. We don't follow someone around pouring scorn on them for being christian but taking the piss out of ideas like virgin births, popes, dinasours on the ark etc etc is all good stuff.

The only time we need to pick on individuals who aren't professionals (popes, priests, vicars etc) is when they are dishonest (e.g IDers) or odious (persecute others)

chez

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But this is exactly what I mean by being inconsistent. Some 50% of Americans DO believe in virgin births, popes, and dinosaurs on the Ark! I'm not suggesting we follow these people around and mock them at every turn, but what about strongly mocking these beliefs? Do you think we do that? Not at all.

In all likelihood our president holds these beliefs. Has he been mocked for them? Not at all! We have elections coming up and there is a very good chance someone who doesn't accept things like evolution, stem-cell research, or woman's rights on abortion issues will become elected.

What I'm saying is that these people are not made to face up to some very obvious questions regarding their beliefs! I think Mitt Romney should be asked straight out: How old do you think the earth is? Do you accept that humans are descendant from apes? And if he answers '6000 years old', and 'no', he should be mocked and ridiculed to the highest degree, no holds barred, by every rational thinker in the country. These answers should be flamed on the front page of every newspaper.

That's the kind of ridicule and mockery I'm talking about. Not dissing Mitt Romney as a man or human being, but in the sense that his out-dated religious notions are ridiculous and undeserving to be a serious contender for the president of the United States.

In this way, religion should be ridiculed and mocked by every rational thinker. Then and only then, will these ridiculous notions be taken out of mainstream societal politics. Believe whatever silly thing you want. But leave the rest of us out of it and don't imply we have to take you seriously about it.

[chezlaw]

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To ridicule the extremists while tolerating and giving a free pass to the moderates is inconsistent. They are the same illogical paths. One group just happens to be further down it than the other. That's all.


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the more ridiculous the beliefs the more ridicule they deserve.

Its not generally individuals who are being mocked but the belief systems and religous authorities. We don't follow someone around pouring scorn on them for being christian but taking the piss out of ideas like virgin births, popes, dinasours on the ark etc etc is all good stuff.

The only time we need to pick on individuals who aren't professionals (popes, priests, vicars etc) is when they are dishonest (e.g IDers) or odious (persecute others)

chez


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But this is exactly what I mean by being inconsistent. Some 50% of Americans DO believe in virgin births, popes, and dinosaurs on the Ark! I'm not suggesting we follow these people around and mock them at every turn, but what about strongly mocking these beliefs? Do you think we do that? Not at all.

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Speak for yourself. Here in the free world we mock that guff all the time [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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In all likelihood our president holds these beliefs. Has he been mocked for them? Not at all!

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We mock him here. Blair has just revealed he kept quiet about his religous beliefs for fear of being branded a loony.

chez

[Lestat]

Perhaps you're unintentionally making a case for the good mocking does. It seems to have worked over there. You guys are more secular than we are here in the states. (although don't you have an increasingly huge Muslim population?).