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  #1  
Old 11-28-2007, 12:38 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

This is in a HORSE rotation. I don't play much stud hi, so I think I made a few mistakes in this hand... Seat 6 is good, I have a lot of respect for him. He occasionally gets tricky. Everyone else is unknown. My thoughts on the streets:

4th: By putting in money for equity I mark my flushdraw, but I feel I do that anyway with my 3rd street play. I am pretty sure Seat 6 has aces since he is not scared of KQ board, maybe JJJ.

5th: When it first gets to me, should I bet out? I.e., do I still have 3-way equity to put money in here? What about when it gets back to me and seat 2 has raised? I find it hard to put him on trip queens, since I hold a Q and he didn't complete 3rd.

6th: I make my flush, but seat 6 most likely makes 3 aces, and the other guy might still have 3 queens. What do I do if one of them raises?

7th: Should I bet/fold here or maybe c/c or what?

7 Card Stud High ($3/$6), Ante $0,50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.17 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (6.17 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___calls___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

5th Street - (7.58 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (13.58 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

River - (16.58 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___calls

Total pot: (19.58 BB - $117,50)
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2007, 01:10 PM
Hamlet Hamlet is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

Strange hand. I think you played it fine. I don't think you can bet/fold 7th. It needs to be bet/call unless it comes back 2 cold to you.

I'm interested in seeing your opponent's hands. Seat two has K's up and seat 6 trip Aces?
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:11 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

4th assuming a pair of aces for Jd8s it seems like you are the equity favorite. Even if Jd8s is rolled up you're pretty close to even. And that scenario is very unlikely since one jack is dead.

5th, I thought you would have very good equity due to the straight draw, but three of the nines are gone, so not much gained outs-wise. Had the nines been live it would have been a very clear value-raise.

You're still in good shape though. Especially since seat 6 is very weighted towards either a big pair or being rolled up with only three jacks available. He can't really have any two pair, unless he overplays split jacks like hell.

That you block trip queens is also nice. And even if he does have trip queens you're still not in horrible shape, but pretty close to break-even.

I think the most common danger is seat 2 having a better four flush, but even then you aren't in a lot of trouble.

And in a lot of common scenarios you have 40%-50% equity.

So mostly it seems that the danger with raising 5th is making seat 6 fold.

I'm strongly leaning towards raising since it seems probable that s6 has buried aces and is going to stick around regardless of raise.

On 6th I definitely think you should re-raise if anyone raises you. It's impossible for s6 to have a boat or better and very, very unlikely that s2 has it due to his side cards to QQ being dead (2 eights, 1 queen and 1 king and buried kings are inconsistent with early play).

At 7th I think you should definitely bet call one and maybe fold if there's a raise + call or call + raise. And probably not fold to the latter either. The pot is huge.
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:54 PM
solarpower solarpower is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

I think the most common danger is seat 2 having a better four flush, but even then you aren't in a lot of trouble.


this is my greatest flaw in my game, I don't understand what to do with four flush against possible better flush draw.

when to let go four flush against possible better draw?
and what about if I made flush and other player gets another suited card
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:01 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
when to let go four flush against possible better draw?

[/ QUOTE ]You pretty much don't, actually. 4-flushed boards, open trips or two pairs is what it takes, or some very predictable players raising when they hit a probably stronger flush.

But worrying about not folding live four-flushes is close to a waste of time, it's going to be right very seldom. You should think a lot more about how to bet the draws for value and credibly bluff with them.
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2007, 09:58 AM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

I don't see a good reason for raising 4th here. Sure you are a favorite to make your flush, but you want people in the hand at this point. This may buy you a free card on 5th, but if they hit trips or two pair they will make you pay for your flush.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:15 AM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

Uhm, what? The good reason for raising 4th is that I get my money in good, and I am sure I am not raising anyone out. Look at the action, I opted to just call at first. I am not buying a free card; it's obvious that I have a FD. How is "they will make you pay for your flush" a result of raising 4th?
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:16 AM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a good reason for raising 4th here.

[/ QUOTE ]You're just wrong about this.

There's two opponents that has put in two bets each. Their fold rate should be very close to zero on 4th.

Not raising is disastrous and is costing you the combined average profits of a whole bunch of hands.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:18 AM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see a good reason for raising 4th here.

[/ QUOTE ]You're just wrong about this.

There's two opponents that has put in two bets each. Their fold rate should be very close to zero on 4th.

Not raising is disastrous and is costing you the combined average profits of a whole bunch of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are playing in a game with solid players who read hands well, with a raise on 4th you may as well turn your cards face up on the table. You *might* get more deceptive value out of weaker hands by 'walking the dog' in this spot.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 11:23 AM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing in a game with solid players who read hands well, with a raise on 4th you may as well turn your cards face up on the table. You *might* get more deceptive value out of weaker hands by 'walking the dog' in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]1) I think it's pretty clear that he does not.

2) I'm not sure it matters all that much even if the other players actually do get convinced he's got a flush draw.

The pot is going to be so huge by the time he hits that even if he hits and the other guys strongly suspect a flush, they're going to call down anyway.

If they frequently fold to a third flush card, obviously he should be doing this with 100% of the hands he called with, since the other guys are going to be folding far too often.

If anything your point is a recommendation for raising with more hands in this spot, not for calling with the flushdraw.

Also, I'd like to know what range you put him on if he just calls. To me it seems his range is incredibly draw-heavy, no matter what he does after the first call on 4th.

If we're going to look at hand balancing and such he should be raising to begin with rather than calling and calling again.
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