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  #61  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:39 PM
MrWookie MrWookie is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

God can do all the threatening, enforcing, judging, and punishing He wants to. We, however, are taught to "judge not, lest ye may be judged." God is the true judge, and He is the only true source of both justification and condemnation. People claiming to speak on His behalf about who He justifies and who He condemns are just clanging cymbals, causing a lot of racket, but not really amounting to much.
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  #62  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:44 PM
katyseagull katyseagull is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.
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  #63  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:37 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Christianity is a way of life. This involves following the nine commandments. Believing or not believing in Hell has nothing to do with proving it exists. I don't think that following just the first two commandments is a sign of a Christian, just some one who wants to take the sure bet, and not bother with what makes being a Christian a Christian.

Accepting Christianity is accepting it's legacy, it's worth, and it's problems. I am not comfortable with the entire belief system, nor am I comfortable identifying with that group of people. I do not believe that I should follow all of the teachings, although, by default, being what I think is a "good" person is similar to Christian leanings.

I know that sounded horrible.
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  #64  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:04 PM
MrWookie MrWookie is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.
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  #65  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:13 PM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.
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  #66  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:21 PM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.
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  #67  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:34 PM
Enrique Enrique is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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Posts: 621
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Dave, but I can say, that many of the issues (for me) are believing in illogical things. Believing that God exists and that Jesus is God is very arbitrary. Why would it only convince people that live in certain geographical regions? Why does being born in a certain part of the world make you better than other parts of the world? If you are born in Asia or in the Middle East, you are very likely to be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim, not Christian. It seems illogical (to me) that Christians are right and they are wrong, when both sides seem to give similar reasons on why they believe (I just feel it).

I think the teachings of Christ with respect to being tolerant and loving one another are good things, but I don't think that teaching that the Christian god is the true god is a good thing. I just can't accept the idea that someone goes to Hell because he doesn't believe the same things as me.

Actions are more important than belief in God or not. Being good to my neighbor, being a good son, helping people, being kind are things that are infinity times more important than praying or thinking about supernatural beings.
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  #68  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:44 PM
tarheeljks tarheeljks is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.

[/ QUOTE ]

he did? most of the scriptures that come to mind involve salvation or his proclamation of being divine

examples please
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  #69  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:58 PM
Blarg Blarg is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Who is Fistface?
Posts: 27,473
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dave,

I'm curious as to the answer to your trivia question. Is it the Sabbath? If so, I disagree, and if I'm wrong, fill me in.

More significantly, though, I don't think that focusing on the two greatest commandments necessarily means you're only partially a Christian. From my point of view, it looks like all of the commandments, not just the best-known ten, AND their correct interpretations, follow from these two greatest commandments. To fully live out these two is itself a life commitment, and is itself living according to all the other commandments.

One thing I'll tell you, Dave, is I suspect that many of the Christian beliefs you take issue with may be human dogma, not the actual words of Christ. If you're taking issue with the words of Christ, that's your prerogative, but I'd caution everyone reading this, Christain and non-Christian, to be alert when discussing things about Christianity as to how much is right from scripture and how much is coming from imperfect human interpretations or even complete fabrications. I would argue that someone who accepts the teachings of Christ but rejects the man-made dogma that sometimes gets interwoven with them is every bit the Christian, if not moreso, than someone who accepts both scripture and dogma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. It's really sad that so many nonbelievers get blinded by this & never give Christianity a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Dave, but I can say, that many of the issues (for me) are believing in illogical things. Believing that God exists and that Jesus is God is very arbitrary. Why would it only convince people that live in certain geographical regions? Why does being born in a certain part of the world make you better than other parts of the world? If you are born in Asia or in the Middle East, you are very likely to be Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim, not Christian. It seems illogical (to me) that Christians are right and they are wrong, when both sides seem to give similar reasons on why they believe (I just feel it).

I think the teachings of Christ with respect to being tolerant and loving one another are good things, but I don't think that teaching that the Christian god is the true god is a good thing. I just can't accept the idea that someone goes to Hell because he doesn't believe the same things as me.

Actions are more important than belief in God or not. Being good to my neighbor, being a good son, helping people, being kind are things that are infinity times more important than praying or thinking about supernatural beings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very much agree. The choice of one God versus another is generally a matter of geography, not either conscience or even knowledge and understanding. The assertion that it is one's own religion that everyone should naturally accept is chauvinistic, willful, and blinkered. And, as history proves, often if not usually unsuccessful when not imposed by force or decree.
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  #70  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:18 PM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon line
Posts: 1,815
Default Re: The rise of the fundamentalist right in America

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know another poster on 2+2 who claims to be a Christian but doesn't believe that Hell is real. I have spent countless posts trying to show him he is wrong to no avail.

[/ QUOTE ]

I consider myself to be a Christian and I don't believe in Hell. I do not think that Hell needs to be taught in church. I don't think I've ever even heard it brought up at my church to be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jesus taught more about hell than he did heaven. This is a prime example of what I was talking about in my last post. Nobody wants to hear the whole truth, they want to cherry pick only the parts that they like.

[/ QUOTE ]

he did? most of the scriptures that come to mind involve salvation or his proclamation of being divine

examples please

[/ QUOTE ]

There are lots of them in Matthew, Mark, & Luke. Revelation too.
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