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  #11  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:06 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

There's a really good point in there... lots of players when describing a hand to me tell me "I couldn't raise, they'd all fold". If that's true, then you should be raising a much broader range of hands, if you're so sure everyone will fold. If they really do fold to you too much, raise a lot and start taking advantage. Eventually they'll start calling and you go back to value betting, or they don't, and you keep robbing them.
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Brad1970 Brad1970 is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are playing in a game with solid players who read hands well, with a raise on 4th you may as well turn your cards face up on the table. You *might* get more deceptive value out of weaker hands by 'walking the dog' in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]1) I think it's pretty clear that he does not.

2) I'm not sure it matters all that much even if the other players actually do get convinced he's got a flush draw.

The pot is going to be so huge by the time he hits that even if he hits and the other guys strongly suspect a flush, they're going to call down anyway.

If they frequently fold to a third flush card, obviously he should be doing this with 100% of the hands he called with, since the other guys are going to be folding far too often.

If anything your point is a recommendation for raising with more hands in this spot, not for calling with the flushdraw.

Also, I'd like to know what range you put him on if he just calls. To me it seems his range is incredibly draw-heavy, no matter what he does after the first call on 4th.

If we're going to look at hand balancing and such he should be raising to begin with rather than calling and calling again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying he shouldn't raise in this particular case. I'm saying that, under the right circumstances with the right mix of players, he would give away his hand if he raised 4th. Then he doesn't get paid off when his makes his flush.
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  #13  
Old 11-29-2007, 02:28 PM
electrical electrical is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

Giving away your hand with a four-flush is not such a bad thing. One-pair hands will know you haven't "beat" them yet and will come along, and most guys will call down even if you make your hand "just in case."

I like the call/raise on Fourth a lot. It puts money in when you're a money favorite and makes the pot big enough that you'll get called by all kinds of crap drawing thin later in the hand.
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  #14  
Old 11-29-2007, 10:42 PM
Raxxmataxx Raxxmataxx is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying he shouldn't raise in this particular case. I'm saying that, under the right circumstances with the right mix of players, he would give away his hand if he raised 4th. Then he doesn't get paid off when his makes his flush.

[/ QUOTE ]Well yes, obviously there potentially are some circumstances where not raising is better. But those players certainly couldn't be described as "solid", as they give up hands where the pot is huge for very few bets.

Also, for your claim to be relevant those players would have to fold if he hit a third flush card, and this in a gigantic pot, *and* that they wouldn't do so if he just called?

What hand range would they put him on if he just called and called?

Especially if he did that and then suddenly raised when the third flush card hit. Someone weak-tight enough to get rid of two-pair when the third flush card hits in a huge pot should be about as weak-tight in that scenario, since that screams flush about as much.

Arguebly, calling and suddenly raising is even more indicative of a flush than calling and raising on 4th is.

The only way we get to pretend that suddenly raising a third flush card didn't help us is if we raise the first bet to begin with and keep betting all the way.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:39 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Stud hi - flushdraw 3-way, becomes tricky

I think you played this about right. I like the flat-call/three-bet on fourth.
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