Razz hand with a lot of dead cards

[roggles]

I've bemoaned before that I can't win at full ring razz games. It came to my attention that my idea that dead cards are probably not THAT important in Razz is completely wrong.

So here is a solid starting hand with lots of cards I need out there among the other players. How does this change the value of my hand at all streets?

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0,20, Bring-In $0,25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls

4th Street - (6.65 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (4.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (6.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

River - (8.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___checks___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

Total pot: (10.33 BB - $20,65)

[Andy B]

On third, several of your cards are dead, but I don't think that's enough to make this a fold. I wouldn't raise, either. Obviously, the rest of the hand came down really well for you, and you kept your foot to the gas.

[RustyBrooks]

The cards that are out change your hand on 3rd from an awesome one to a merely pretty great one. Your hand is not what I'd call dead here... there are only 3 low cards that you want showing, and only one of them is a wheel card. But limping there is weird. Why do you want to see 4th with more players when your hand is a little weaker? I might limp-reraise there, or open complete and call a raise, but I don't like a limp call too much. Look what happened... 5 people saw 4th.

4th is good for you because you not only pick up one of your dead cards, you undoubtedly have the best hand. Betting out is proper there of course.

Now on 5th you have a premium hand again because you picked up ANOTHER of your dead cards. This is fantastic, he might not even be able to beat you with a perfect card. If he's reasonable, though, he has 3 wheel cards I think. Of course, your actions on 3rd might have convinced him you have like a 87 now, so he might be calling with a rough 7 draw, which would be spectacular for you.

On 6th even though neither of you improve your hand quality does because he can't draw 2 cards any more - if he's drawing dead, awesome. If he's not, he still has a pretty slim chance to beat you. If he has A237 he only has 6 outs. If he has A247 he has 7 outs. If he has A257 he has 4 outs to win and 3 outs to tie. The 9 is a great 6th st card because now he's probably calling the river no matter what.

[RustyBrooks]

Oh, I'd definitely raise 3rd... having 3 low card outs dead just downgrades the hand one notch, and since it's super-premium to start, now it's only kind of premium. To me that makes it like, say, a 3-card 6 with an out or two showing. Maybe I raise too much on 3rd.

[roggles]

I just called because I wasn't sure if this was a great hand. Plus I am omaha-damaged and won't raise UTG, although that doesn't make sense in stud

[jbrennen]

Complete 3rd. As played, after limping, raise the next time it comes around. There is essentially no chance that you don't have at least 20% equity in this hand, so with 5 players still in the hand, pump the pot or get people to fold -- either way you win.

After 3rd street, there's not that much to discuss about the hand. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It sort of plays itself, doesn't it?

[Andy B]

I misread the hand. I thought it was completed in front of you. Definitely complete on third.

[betgo]

I think you played it too conservatively on 3rd. Your hand is not that dead. There is a 2 out there. Limping or raising initially is fine. As played, I would limpreraise with so many people in the pot and the complete coming from a 7.

[betgo]

There is also some advantage to the limp/call, as your hand is way underrepresented, which probably got you action way ahead on 4th and 5th. I often play that way, although it is not standard.

However, I as I said, I would reraise rather than play it 5-handed for one bet. Just open raising on 3rd is the standard play.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
There is also some advantage to the limp/call, as your hand is way underrepresented, which probably got you action way ahead on 4th and 5th. I often play that way, although it is not standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true, and one of the difficulties with giving and getting advice from forums like these. By necessity we review hands in a vacuum and personally I give the advice for what I would do *most* of the time, like, the standard play. Always doing the standard thing is not the best way to play poker (but it's not the worst way either)

If I was going for a limp re-raise here I might, instead, call, because a LRR might not clear the field, and now I'm playing the same # of people in a bigger pot.