Why do I keep getting raised on the river

[HOWMANY]

Full 60 game. Up until lately I have thought villain was a huge mouth breathing drooler but the past couple days he has actually been playing something similar to the game of poker. Still pretty bad but he has gone from like an 80/5/.1 style to one like a 30/10. Still too many hands and too passive but a lot closer to not being a giant fish. He is at the very least aware that I am tight and aggressive.

I open the HJ with JJ, he 3bets CO, folds to me and I 4bet, he calls.

Flop K63r
I bet he calls

Turn 2 making a flush draw
I bet he calls

River 7 no flush
I bet he of course raises

So the possibilities are that he accidentally maximized value with a K or better, he has 77 or he somehow is bluffing. This seemed like a really easy fold but people keep raising me on the river in spots where it seems like the most realistic hand for them is a 2 outter and since I keep folding I'm starting to wonder if I am really just getting 2 outtered every hand or folding winners. These hands are all hours/days apart and I am mucking face down so there's no reason to think that people are taking shots at me because I make "big" laydowns.

[private joker]

Responding to your threads, I'm discovering a leak of my own which is that I try to induce bluffs too much from aggro players, meaning I prefer taking the check-call river line out of position in spots like this. But since I keep recommending that and nobody does it, I should probably be bet/folding more and check-calling less.

[ssmallz]

Against a guy you described as too passive, JJ is never good when he raises the river, especially when you've shown so much strenth. You're hand looks like AK or better, play accordingly.

[cowboy billy]

this is a really easy bet/fold situation, you played the hand well, now fold

this guy is never bluff raising you here ever and even if martians exist and they have taken over his body, odds still favor a fold

[blackasthma]

[ QUOTE ]
even if martians exist and they have taken over his body, odds still favor a fold

[/ QUOTE ]

speak for yourself, but i'm calling a martian every time and twice when the planets align...

[cowboy billy]

lol, at first I just ignored you as a user, but you posted such crappy advice I decided to un-ignore you bc your posts make me laugh, no pun intended

[blackasthma]

don't worry, no pun taken...

[andyfox]

There are some guys in the Commerce 60 who will play their big hands exactly in this manner. Mickey, for example, the wealthy older guy who usually sits in the 5 seat. There are fewer guys who will, on the river, take a shot raising a guy who's been beting all the way with air.

Your table image, as I see it, as one of young hot-shot aggressive, not the type someone would try to blow off on the river. (I'm that type. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]). If you feel they're taking shots at you--and, as I say, I don't think this is the case--it might be worth the two big bets to 3-bet 'em every once to let 'em know who they're fritzin' with. One time will get the job done.

But, as I say, I don't think the job needs getting done.

[jfk]

When a guy with the numbers and playing style you describe 3 bets you preflop and then stays with the hand the whole way, I'm not sure this river bet is the best play.

[ QUOTE ]
He is at the very least aware that I am tight and aggressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which means he can count on you to bet this the whole way. He can pick and chose how and when to raise you when he thinks he's best.

[ QUOTE ]
So the possibilities are that he accidentally maximized value with a K or better, he has 77 or he somehow is bluffing. This seemed like a really easy fold but people keep raising me on the river in spots where it seems like the most realistic hand for them is a 2 outter and since I keep folding I'm starting to wonder if I am really just getting 2 outtered every hand or folding winners.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of these guys will play AK or even AA like this because they can count on your action. The preflop three bet diminishes the likelihood of the mid/small pairs as most often this type will cold call with those hands. The three bet skews his range against you much higher.

You made a good/reasonable fold, but against these types who do seem to have a degree of game theory built into their big street play you have to reassess what constitutes a value bet at this river. There was value in showing the hand down yet you provided an opportunity to get yourself blown off the hand in a spot where you're having a hard time solidly putting him on a hand.

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
If you feel they're taking shots at you--and, as I say, I don't think this is the case--it might be worth the two big bets to 3-bet 'em every once to let 'em know who they're fritzin' with. One time will get the job done.


[/ QUOTE ]

I like the rest of your post Andy but I just quoted this out to nitpick a tad. I think that with second pair a bet/call line to snap off their river bluff is not an unreasonable idea. Putting in a 3 bet is a terrible idea given the action since he folds all hands you beat and calls or 4 bets all hands you don't. That is a very expensive way to get them to stop fritzen and when you 3 bet and fold to a 4 bet it only makes the problem worse.

HOWMANY, I think you played the hand fine and your fold is good. One of the reasons you invest that extra small bet preflop and 4 bet is to make the hand easier to play. They know you have something, and they don't expect a fold since they never would. That's why you can. Next time just have KK.