Gods, Humans and Damned

[ettorek]

I'm playing low limits SNG ($6.5) on PS and using sharkscope to see who's playing with me at the table I've noted that there are basically three kind of players.

Gods: on 3k SNG they have a steady performance and seems that variance doesn't matter on their game giving them a ROI of around 20% or more.

Humans: usually on a less sample of games played (around 1k) they have hi and low and have a ROI around +/- 5%. Very few people left this range for the upper one, more let this for the latter.

Damned: are basically playing without a plan hoping and usually are enjoying (but loosing) the game. They can let this stage only with the knowledge of the basics stuff and with enough disciple.

Now, I'm not surprised to be in the second group because for long time I missed the basic of the game. But how is possible (at these limits) to play a variance free game? Which are in you opinion the best skill to develop the own game?

2+2 = +EV --> this is for sure!!! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[kamel]

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I'm playing low limits SNG ($6.5) on PS and using sharkscope to see who's playing with me at the table I've noted that there are basically three kind of players.

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I basical distinguish the fish into 2 seperate classes, but your seperation is useful even to higher levels.

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Gods: on 3k SNG they have a steady performance and seems that variance doesn't matter on their game giving them a ROI of around 20% or more.


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At most any level (including to $100 Sng) they are, and if you want to know how to play SnGs just observe them. It's really useful.

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Humans: usually on a less sample of games played (around 1k) they have hi and low and have a ROI around +/- 5%. Very few people left this range for the upper one, more let this for the latter.


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Yep, solid SnG strategy (weak-tight early, later following more or less ICM or at least push aggressive near to the bubble but only call tight) will lead to it.

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Damned: are basically playing without a plan hoping and usually are enjoying (but loosing) the game. They can let this stage only with the knowledge of the basics stuff and with enough disciple.


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There are a lot of them.
I guess, some of them are good cash game players, but in SnGs they are often too loose-aggressive against the wrong players.

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Now, I'm not surprised to be in the second group because for long time I missed the basic of the game. But how is possible (at these limits) to play a variance free game?


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At no level, there is a variance free game. I currently coach a friend who is beating the low levels with a 30% ROI (and that's realistic at this level) and he had 35 and a 30 buyin downswing there.

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Which are in you opinion the best skill to develop the own game?


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Read, Observe, Work with all tools availabe, THINK.

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2+2 = +EV --> this is for sure!!! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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This is not so sure (for SnGs if thinking about maximum +EV). But I like to play with 2p2er SnG players :-). That's for +EV, allthough not 2p2er SnG players are a bit more +EV.

[ettorek]

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At no level, there is a variance free game. I currently coach a friend who is beating the low levels with a 30% ROI (and that's realistic at this level) and he had 35 and a 30 buyin downswing there.

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Nice job! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Having a 30% ROI with such a downswing means a lot of games played: how many games must be played on a daily basis to make own game improve?

[BBloke]

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At no level, there is a variance free game. I currently coach a friend who is beating the low levels with a 30% ROI (and that's realistic at this level) and he had 35 and a 30 buyin downswing there.

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Nice job! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Having a 30% ROI with such a downswing means a lot of games played: how many games must be played on a daily basis to make own game improve?

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I would love to know the answer to that. I think I am struggling in a similar manner to you. I sometimes think that ZERO games a day is good!!! Seriously, though no games can be good for me. Time to read books and keep thinking is good.

[Jbrochu]

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I'm playing low limits SNG ($6.5) on PS and using sharkscope to see who's playing with me at the table I've noted that there are basically three kind of players.

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FYI - Sharkscope use was recently banned by Stars.

[RexWoo]

30% ROI and 35 buy-in downswing ??????????

It's one or the other, not both.

[ettorek]

This is the news but till now seems to me that Sharkscope continue to be up to date.Thanks anyway Jbrochu.

[wiggs73]

ettorek,

I have to lock this... because all your post is actually saying is "Some players are better than others; how do I get better?"

Kamel already gave you the only answer there is to this, which is "Read, Observe, Work with all tools availabe, THINK." That's actually a great answer.

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how many games must be played on a daily basis to make own game improve?

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Think about this. Do you really expect someone to say "If you play 5 games a day, you will not improve. But once you are playing 15 games a day, well, then your game will take off." That doesn't make sense. You can play 100 games a day, but if you aren't doing anything to improve as far as studying or thinking, your game will stagnate.

There are a few obviously important concepts to master if you want to play SNGs. The first, and most important, is ICM. SNGs are a short stacked game, so most of the biggest pots you play are going to be late-game push/fold/call an allin decisions. So get good at making these decisions.

I think the toughest part of a SNG to play is the mid stages where blinds are 25/50 or 50/100. Your stack size often makes this part of the SNG awkward to play because blinds are small enough so that pushing preflop often isn't reasonable, but at the same time they're large enough so that a) they're worth stealing but b) you can't maneuver postflop much. So if you want an area to start studying after ICM, I'd look at middle blinds. Find hands that seemed awkward and post them.

Aside from that, consciously think about every move you make. Think about why you are making it and why it's better than any other move you could have made. This is a good habit to get into regardless of what kind of game you are playing, SNG, MTTs, cash, whatever. Don't do a play just because it's standard. The standard play is often the best play, but there are also spots where a non-standard play would be better. The only way to find these spots is to always be thinking about various plays. But really, every move you make in poker, every fold, call, raise, should have a purpose so always be thinking about WHY you're doing what you're doing.

Ok, aside from all that, figure out who the good posters are and read everything they post. I made the most progress in SNGs back in the day by reading everything from Irieguy, Curtains, ZeeJustin, Aleo, etc. that I could get my hands on. There are a different group of good posters now, but there's definitely some quality stuff floating around the forum. Read every strategy thread. Doesn't matter if you haven't been in a "44 in the BB vs. a minraise late" spot before. You might be soon. Learn how to play in that spot. Learn why you should play that way in that spot.

Find guys who are playing similar stakes and send them a PM of "want to exchange IM names?" I've got like 60 people or something from 2+2 on my buddy list. Some are there because they like to IM me questions. Some are there because I like to IM them questions. The thing about that is that I get about the same benefit out of both groups because they both make me think about poker.

If you see a good player get to showdown while you're playing, see what they had. Try to figure out why they played the hand the way they did. I've actually said "PM me" before to a player, while playing, just so I could be like 'why would you ever play K9 like that on that particular board?'


Really, this post got long, but I didn't say anything ground breaking so that's why I'm still locking it - there isn't really anything ground breaking to say on the subject. If you want to get better, then try to improve. There are ICM tools in the sticky, and a ton of folks who post in strategy discussions every day. Use these things that are at your disposal.

[Jbrochu]

Yes, Sharkcope gave Stars the middle finger and is continuing to gather data. The problem is Stars will eventually penalize Sharkscope users. You're prolly ok continuing to use it until you get a personal warning from Stars, but you never know.