AK pf and deep against stations

[AMT]

with a couple more callers id definitely shove often, as of now its close, calling and taking a flop is good, shoving isnt that bad. kinda depends on the table.

[8Adam8]

540

[ChipSpeak]

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The big flaw in your logic (which is a big flaw in the logic of many beginner players) is that your priority is to make your hand easy to play.

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Steve, making it easier to play it has to be made a larger priority due to the fact we are vs donks here (and lots of em) playing thinking player logic vs donks will get you killed. I assume it's been a while for you, so correct me if I'm wrong, I often find the more experienced players to have lost the touch for the super donks. If I'm wrong here saying the limp is a bad combination of value and danger, can you fill in the blanks? And what flop you hit vs 4 opponents that gets raised do you feel good about?

Edit check raise,,,

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I have definitely lost touch with the low stakes donks but I still stand by my advice. I think that if I can explain this point clearly it might prove to be a turning point in your game.

Against the described opponents I am willing to felt most ace high and most king high flops because my opponents will be felting lesser aces/kings. Sometimes this means I lose to two pair or a set, more often I am able to double through someone who is drawing to 3 outs on the flop.

These loose-bad calling stations are not going to fold their AT on a AJ2 board so I will bet 300 on the flop, 650 on the turn, and I will shove the river. Sometimes I will lose to AJ but I will be maximizing value against their range at all times.

You are advocating reraising preflop. Loose-bad calling stations are going to fold ATo to a 3bet from the blinds and because of that we are costing yourselves a great deal of implied odds since they can not fold an ace high flop.

While these players will fold ATo preflop they will never fold 99 preflop to our reraise and when the flop comes down J72 they will go to the felt against our continuation bet. In fact, the only flops that they will not felt with their pocket pairs are flops with an ace or a king on them. By reraising preflop we eliminate the hands that we dominate from the villains range, and these are the very hands that we want to be playing against!

You should not fear letting a dominated hand outflop you. This does not mean that you should always stack off with TPTK against one of these players, you should still be using your hand reading skills, but sometimes you will stack off when they flop a set or two pair and when that happens you should just be content that you maximized your expected value in the hand.

Please post any follow up questions or if you disagree with my points.

Steve



edit: you realize that this pot is already raised right? You used the term limp while I am advocating a smooth call rather than a squeeze.

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Edited the limp term...

What I'm curious about now is how your play would differ if this were a larger.. say $50+ buyin?

[baltostar]

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A go-and-go would work as well I guess. Raise to 600 and jam any flop. I don't think it matters to much what you do.


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Go-go is kinda lame here, and with more than one caller it's simply a bad play. A stop-go or a go-go should really be reserved for when you're getting low on chips.

At a conservative table, I call. At a stations table, I raise it up to 600. Either way, it comes down to post-flop play ... which hopefully shouldn't be a bad thing.

[BlueEcho]

Wow I hope everybody reads these 2 quotes I pulled from Cornell in this thread. If you don't get what he is saying here reread it 100x if you have to. This is what alot of the new posters are missing. Get your head around this concept and start making more money. It applies in so many places.

Nice posts man!

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You don't want to play your hand so its easy. You want to play your hand so that it is maxEV

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I have definitely lost touch with the low stakes donks but I still stand by my advice. I think that if I can explain this point clearly it might prove to be a turning point in your game.

Against the described opponents I am willing to felt most ace high and most king high flops because my opponents will be felting lesser aces/kings. Sometimes this means I lose to two pair or a set, more often I am able to double through someone who is drawing to 3 outs on the flop.

These loose-bad calling stations are not going to fold their AT on a AJ2 board so I will bet 300 on the flop, 650 on the turn, and I will shove the river. Sometimes I will lose to AJ but I will be maximizing value against their range at all times.

You are advocating reraising preflop. Loose-bad calling stations are going to fold ATo to a 3bet from the blinds and because of that we are costing yourselves a great deal of implied odds since they can not fold an ace high flop.

While these players will fold ATo preflop they will never fold 99 preflop to our reraise and when the flop comes down J72 they will go to the felt against our continuation bet. In fact, the only flops that they will not felt with their pocket pairs are flops with an ace or a king on them. By reraising preflop we eliminate the hands that we dominate from the villains range, and these are the very hands that we want to be playing against!

You should not fear letting a dominated hand outflop you. This does not mean that you should always stack off with TPTK against one of these players, you should still be using your hand reading skills, but sometimes you will stack off when they flop a set or two pair and when that happens you should just be content that you maximized your expected value in the hand.

Please post any follow up questions or if you disagree with my points.

Steve



edit: you realize that this pot is already raised right? You used the term limp while I am advocating a smooth call rather than a squeeze.

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[Mr.Poker]

I actually think pushing in this tourny is quite a reasonable play.

I hate flat calling here, our hand is way too strong for that, but i also know how bad some of these players are, and that raising to 300-450 will inevitably get a ridiculous amount of callers.

I think I either push or raise to 350 PF, unfortunately with the intention of check folding most flops unimproved. This is the most likely way we stack someone who has a dominated hand when we hit.

[ChipSpeak]

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Wow I hope everybody reads these 2 quotes I pulled from Cornell in this thread.

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Agreed.. was well timed for where I'm at with my game...

Thanks

[baltostar]

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You are advocating reraising preflop. Loose-bad calling stations are going to fold ATo to a 3bet from the blinds and because of that we are costing yourselves a great deal of implied odds since they can not fold an ace high flop.

While these players will fold ATo preflop they will never fold 99 preflop to our reraise and when the flop comes down J72 they will go to the felt against our continuation bet. In fact, the only flops that they will not felt with their pocket pairs are flops with an ace or a king on them. By reraising preflop we eliminate the hands that we dominate from the villains range, and these are the very hands that we want to be playing against!

You should not fear letting a dominated hand outflop you. This does not mean that you should always stack off with TPTK against one of these players, you should still be using your hand reading skills, but sometimes you will stack off when they flop a set or two pair and when that happens you should just be content that you maximized your expected value in the hand.

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This logic sounds good on the surface, but playing a premium hand in a multi-way pot actually goes against Sklansky, and I agree with Sklansky on this one. And the situation is actually made worse if it's donks because you grossly limit your post-flop plays available and you are much more likely to be unable to differentiate the nuts from stubborness.

Yes, you should not fear letting a single dominated hand outflop you, but when faced with 2 and definitely with 3,4 opponents, the EV turns against you.

By letting 3 callers come along you open the door for:

1. all PPs coming along, and on non-AK flop, you will be hard-pressed to take it away from them, and might waste all your chips doing so

2. all suited connectors coming along, opening door for straight and flush draws and you will have a hard time betting such flops if non-AK

3. even if no PP are involved, you can't tell if someone hit a non-AK flop (with any two broadway cards, for example) and in this case betting your two overcards is not advised (as it often is with a single opponent)

4. you significantly increase the chance that an opponent hits a set, trips, or 2 pair

[ChipSpeak]

Steve, BelowAbove agrees with your strategy here. Hand 8 of his $150 FO on xfactor is nearly identical to this hand. He however puts in a small raise to limpers, but conceptually, this is a very similar hand. Thanks again for the post, you've changed my game with that one. Thinking Max+EV is indeed the way to go.