Cannot Build My Roll -- Up and Down -- Need Help (Long)

Rookcifer · #1 10-02-2007, 08:49 PM

I decided to give another attempt at improving my game as long as I still have a roll. My roll is small ($50), but I figure since I didn't have to deposit but $2 in order to build it, then I will refrain from cashing it out. I will just play until I either build it up or lose it all.

I had $140 at one point. Now, as I said above, I am down to $50. The last few days I will build it from 50 to 80 and then lose back to 70, build it back up to 80, and lose back to 50. Rinse and repeat. I just cannot maintain it.

All that said, I guess I will start by asking a few general questions about scenarios that confuse me when I am at the table.

1) If I am in the BB where no one raises and the flop gives me top pair with a weak kicker, do I come out betting? Do I check and see what happens? What if someone bets and there are other callers or raisers? Is this an auto-fold? What if I am not in the blind but still find myself with TP weak kicker? If the guy bets into me should I just fold? I know everything is situational, but again, keep in mind I play the lowest stakes and just assume, for the sake of simplicity, that the players are average semi-loose players. They don't raise with total garbage but will enter with marginal hands.

2) How does one play two pair? Two pair almost never wins me any pots and I just have NO CLUE how to proceed when I hit such a hand, especially in a multi-way pot. This is even more true when I have bottom two pair. In a multi-way pot I just never know if 2 pair is good and I lose a ton of money this way. However, there are many times I fold this hand when I find out I had the best hand after the hand is over.

3) When I look at my PT stats, I find out that I am way in the red with one pair. I just don't have a good enough perception yet to know when to fold these hands. One pair is almost as tricky for me as two pair. Every other possible hand (besides two pair) I am in the green with (which is no surprise as flushes and straights and full houses rarely lose anyway). Since most of the hands one plays will not be trips or better, I need to learn how to maximize my earnings with one pair and two pair. Keep in mind that I often fold bottom or middle pair to any aggression whatsoever, so I am losing most of the money with top pair.

Now for a non-strategy question: I have been playing Hold 'em for 2 months total. Should I be beyond the point I am now in skill, win rate etc.?

Finally, I will post hyper-links to my session graphs and my total stats so you can see how I have declined. Is this a result of "variance" or is it just a result of being inconsistent?

This is the session graph from my first few thousand hands when I was killing $2 NL.

http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/307...6537045_rs.jpg

This is the new graph from my up and down sessions. I am slightly, very slightly, in the green in my new database, but I just cannot build a roll. I win then give it all back.

http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/307...4173984_rs.jpg

These are my stats from my first winning database:

http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/290...8093517_rs.jpg

Stats from the new losing database:

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/289...0033094_rs.jpg

Lastly, if this is not the right forum for such a post, I apologize. I just don't feel comfortable posting such rudimentary questions in the micro or full ring forum where I will only be talked down to.

Nightlight87 · #2 10-02-2007, 09:20 PM

Hey, not sure how helpful I can be but I'll give it a shot.

1) It depends how many other people are in the pot. If there are only 1-3 people I'd probably c-bet and try take the pot, if it doesn't work I shut down and check/fold. If there are 3+ people in the pot then I wouldn't even bother c-betting. At these limits I think it's unlikely that no one will call and I think it would be a waste since I wouldn't bet/call TPWK all the way to the river.

If I'm not in the blind and someone bets into me, I'd fold TPWK easily, it's not a big hand, so just let him take the small pot before you put any more money into it. You'll get plenty of chances to take pots later when you have much stronger hands.

2.)I don't know if this is the correct line to take. But if I flop 2pair I like to play it aggressively and bet 1/2 pot, to the whole pot. If I'm raised here I'd probably call if the flop texture isn't nasty (not monotone, no OESD, no pairs, etc) and try to get to showdown cheaply.

3.) I lose lots of money on one pair as well, in fact if I didn't play single pairs I'd have nearly twice as much profit! So the only help I can give here is if you have doubts about 1pair been good enough, fold it and save your money for when you have a bigger hand.

And as for folding bottom/middle pair I usually do the same unless I have a good read and know villian is FOS.

Your PFR stats look good to me on both databases. But I think you are limping into. When I was playing $2NL my stats were 13/8/1.8 and I quickly built my roll from there. If you play better quality hands preflop it will stop you getting into as many bad situations post flop, and should hopefully stop you losing so much.

So in short: Play tighter, and when you make a hand play it more aggressively, and make sure you play in position! And don't be afraid to fold one/two pairs especially if they are mid/bottom pair.

I'm sure someone will come along with more advice soon [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: As for the skill question. Honestly I don't know because each person advances in skill at their own rate. But if you are looking to improve and become a winning player I'd recommend getting a beginners book and studying that. I'd recommend Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. And again I'm sure other people can recommend some good books for beginners too.

RyverRat · #3 10-03-2007, 03:53 AM

definately get your Preflop agression factor higher. This should be atleast 50% of your vpip. Nightlights 13/8 is a good example of tight aggressive. your stats are 26/8.6 as you can see this needs to tighten up and be more aggressive in the correct places. if you are going to be in a pot RAISE. Keep your early position raises to a very tight range of hands and open up slightly in later positions.

This will work at this level.

Rookcifer · #4 10-03-2007, 07:12 AM

Thanks guys. I played tonight for about 6 hours and my VPIP at each table was 15-18% with a PFR about half of that. I also C-bet religiously. I did OK here and there, but ended up losing huge pots which made me end up a few bucks in the red compared to where I was when I started the night. I am now like -$2.00, where as when I started I was + $2. I played 6 tables.

It's frustrating to play that long only to lose money. It would take me an hour or two to grind out $1 profit at a table, only to lose my entire stack when I hit a straight and the other guy hits a full house. Another time we were all in, I had Aces, he had KJ. He flopped a K, and hit a J on the river. This is my luck, has been for a week or so. I feel like I am usually getting my money in when I have the odds, and usually moving in when I have a str8 or flush etc.. The problem is I have gotten felted a few times by a bigger flush and get my straights wacked by full houses. Seems like every time I turn around someone hits a small set on me and felts me when I move in with my queens or kings. I NEVER hit sets with my small pairs. The few times I do, I never get action. Just my luck.

Anyways, enough of my bitchen. I will try to remain tight and see how it works. It seems to work OK as far as grinding out little pots. But again, I lose far more big pots than I win. This is my problem. Seems like I always have the 2nd best hand, and I need to learn how to recognize this.

BTW, I haven't been playing long enough to understand the full aspect of variance, but how long can "downswings" last in winning players? I'm not suggesting I am a winning player, but am curious anyway.

Thanks again guys.

Cernunnos · #5 10-03-2007, 08:57 AM

As well as looking at your play, you also need to consider variance, the varaince in this game is simply shocking, i can show you runs of 25,000 at 1-2Blinds 200nl where i am breakeven and then in the same month 45000 hands where i am 5PTBB/100 up, so varaince is shocking.

Also you say you are playing 6 tables and are struggling with the game, drop some tables, make notes on every opponent who you have difficulty with, make note of every time you struggle to know what to do. think about the situtaion afterwards, if you can't decide what you should have done post the Hand in the appropriate forum.

Lastly consider getting someone to do a sweat or session review with you.

ttgirl · #6 10-03-2007, 08:58 AM

get rakeback

Nightlight87 · #7 10-03-2007, 09:01 AM

If you are losing money you might want to think about cutting back to just one or two tables and concentrate on playing tight and aggressive.

And if I read your post right you are stacking off with pairs of kings and queens against sets? Don't do this, one pair is not a very strong hand and it's rarely right to shove all-in with a single pair in a fullring game!

gotmarc · #8 10-03-2007, 10:32 AM

Have you ever considered buying in short?

LEt's say you buy in for 5% of your bankroll $2.50 and you play the .01-.02 tables. you have a stack of 125 big blinds, but most of the people you are playing bought in for $1--sound familiar. It's every difficult to get all the money on the table. You're up against calling stations who don't even know what they have let alone you. So it's harder to read them and even harder to bluff them.

Or you're up against some jerk who regularly plays $5-$10 NLHE ten hours a day, but is steaming because he recently lost five buy-ins. Even if this guy's on tilt he's not going to give up a lot of chips when you hit your flush draw on the river.

The weak spot gives up all of thier chips, but it's only a dollar.

You set yourself up to either win $1 or lose $2.50.

If you want to buy in with a deep stack, you must be very careful to protect it. You can not go broke with top pair. YOu may think your AK when on A-7-2, but the donkey with 7-2 currently has you beat. If you don't counterfit his two pair or catch another ace or king then you are in a situation where you stand to lose more than you can win.

Rookcifer · #9 10-03-2007, 09:33 PM

I am losing again today. Here are a few hands where I lost big. I don't know what I can do differently. I posted the results so you could see how bad of luck I have. Yeah I probably miplayed some of them, but I think I just have horrible luck. Certainly much worse than anyone else at the tables I sit at. Every time I move pocket aces all in on the flop someone calls and sucks out a flush or has a small set.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($2)
MP2 ($5.01)
Hero ($1.85)
Button ($4.96)
SB ($5.45)
BB ($4.89)
UTG ($0.58)
UTG+1 ($1.97)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $0.02.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.2, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.20, Hero calls $0.20, 3 folds.

Flop: ($0.65) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.56, UTG+1 raises to $1.77, MP2 calls $1.77, Hero calls $1.09 (All-In).

Turn: ($5.60) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($5.60) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $5.84

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Ks Kc (full house, kings full of queens).
MP2 has Td 9c (one pair, queens).
Hero has Ah Qs (full house, queens full of aces).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $5.84. 

Hand 2

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP2 ($3.60)
Hero ($1.63)
CO ($1.31)
Button ($2.93)
SB ($1.31)
BB ($1.64)
UTG ($2.91)
UTG+1 ($3.30)
MP1 ($0.99)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, MP2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.09, BB calls $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.08.

Flop: ($0.52) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets $0.04, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.04, MP2 folds, Hero raises to $0.68, SB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.64.

Turn: ($1.92) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.78, Hero calls $0.85 (All-In).

River: ($3.62) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $3.63

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has 8c Tc (flush, jack high).
Hero has Qd Jh (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $4.54. 

Hand 3

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($3.45)
Hero ($1.97)
Button ($0.62)
SB ($2.96)
BB ($2)
UTG ($1.45)
UTG+1 ($2.66)
MP1 ($5.76)
MP2 ($1.43)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.02, 3 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.1, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.08, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($0.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.16, UTG calls $0.16.

Turn: ($0.57) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($0.57) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $0.2, Hero raises to $1.71, UTG calls $0.99 (All-In).

Final Pot: $2.95

Results in white below: 
UTG has Kc Tc (flush, king high).
Hero has Ac Td (straight, ace high).
Outcome: UTG wins $2.95. Hero wins $0.52. 

I lost a huge pot with this hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($5.10)
Button ($5.08)
SB ($0.99)
Hero ($5.34)
UTG ($2.92)
UTG+1 ($8.51)
MP1 ($0.80)
MP2 ($3.27)
MP3 ($1.07)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
5 folds, CO raises to $0.06, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04.

Flop: ($0.13) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $0.22, CO raises to $0.5, Hero raises to $5.28, CO calls $4.54 (All-In).

Turn: ($10.21) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.21) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.21

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Ah (two pair, aces and jacks).
CO has Th Qd (straight, king high).
Outcome: CO wins $10.21. Hero wins $0.24. 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

saw flop|[color=#C00000]saw showdown

[color=#C00000]Hero ($2.91)
UTG ($2.97)
UTG+1 ($5.20)
MP1 ($1.25)
MP2 ($4.96)
CO ($1.42)
[color=#C00000]Button ($6.42)
SB ($1.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

,

.
[color=#666666]1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, [color=#666666]1 fold, Button calls $0.02, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.10)

,

[color=#0000FF](6 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $0.08, UTG+1 calls $0.08, MP1 folds, CO folds, Button calls $0.08, SB calls $0.08.

Turn: ($0.42)

[color=#0000FF](4 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $0.34, UTG+1 calls $0.34, Button calls $0.34, SB calls $0.34.

River: ($1.78)

[color=#0000FF](4 players)
SB checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets $1.02, UTG+1 folds, Button calls $1.02, SB folds.

Final Pot: $3.82

Results in white below: [color=#FFFFFF]
Hero has 4h 8s (two pair, eights and fours).
Button has Qs 6s (two pair, queens and sixes).
Outcome: Button wins $3.82. 

All of this further enhances my view that playing any two cards is the way to go. Those who have high VPIP% always have huge stacks. People like me who wait for AK only have it crack by someone holding a J-2 flush. And forget about pushing flush draws out on the flop by betting pot. They will call no matter the odds, and hit them 90% of the time (in my experience with my horrible luck).

Sorry about all my complaining but I am just the type of guy who gets frustrated easily when I try at something and cannot win. This is never usually a problem for me but this game has done it. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I appreciate all your input, guys!

RyverRat · #10 10-03-2007, 11:26 PM

'Those who have high VPIP% always have huge stacks'

high $vpip means high variance but will generally trend to the downside of the long term. This is fact. Look at your losing players in PTracker and see what their stats are. With Loose Aggresive players they will be winning huge pots some times but will be overall losing players. They are just sticking out to you at the table as they have the big stack. Let me say this - YOU WANT THEM AT YOUR TABLE. You have to believe that this is where your money will come from.

There is no such thing as luck. Luck is a historic view of results. Poker is a long term game. Once you have that firm in your mind then beats do not affect you as much. Actually you should be appreciative of bad beats in a twisted way because if you are sucked out on that means you had your money in when you were ahead. This = profit.

If you find 3 or 4 players are calling your p/f raises of x3 BB then start raising to 5x or 6x BB There is a level where people will not call and that is player specific. Make notes on how much you can bet with. The higher the better when you have premium hands. Make them pay for those flush draws that does = profit. Stick with it. Variance is a b*tch and can last a while.

I ask you a question. Answer honestly. Against the same players you are having 'bad luck' against, If you knew you were 60/40 ahead would you still put your stack in ?