This one made me feel really icky (Bellagio 20/40 O/8)

[DanS]

Bellagio 20/40, this hand's half-killed to 30/60. Please identity what you think the errors are here and how eggregious they are:

The game is 8-handed, though we'd been playing 5-6 handed for an hour or so. Typical low/mid limit O/8 mistakes: opening light, commiting to showdown light and/or folding one way hands on the turn/river when a calldown is in order. Villian in this hand is a mid-30's middle Eastern guy who is capable of being retarded laggro preflop (such as raising AKT7 after 4 limpers), but fancies himself a solid player postflop. He isn't, but he cleary has more neurons firing than most of the people in the game. I've been playing an hour, and I'm up about 15 big bets by showing down the nuts pretty much every time I've been involved.

Three limpers to me in the SB, I complete Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. BB is middle Eastern guy, who has raised 3 of the last four hands with very questionable values. Called to me and I call, 5 to the flop with 5 big bets in the pot.

The flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Please note: I forget if the Queen came on the flop or it was in fact the queen. I don't think it makes a huge difference to the hand, but let me know if you think it does. I check, BB bets, one old man who opens way too light calls. Folded to me, I call. 3 players and 6.5 bets to the turn.

Turn is the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I check, BB bets. Old man deliberates in a manner that I perceive to be a poor low draw without much else, and I call. 3 players, and 9.5 bets ($570) to turn.

Before the river, BB yells "NINE!!!" Sure enough, it's the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I take a measured pause and try to figure out if between the old man missing and the reasonable likelihood that BB doesn't even have Aces Up... after about 2 seconds I figure the gig's up, but before I can check, the BB shoves out his hand like he's eager to release six chips. My spidey sense tingles and I instabet the river at this point....

Thoughts?

[Habib Marwan]

This hand is perfect up to the river. I wouldn't bet river because some retarded 2 pair is calling 100% of the time.

[I dunno]

So I take it the reason you bet was to knockout the guy that clearly missed? I'd still check because BB is betting here when checked to for sure, even with Jack high. Let him bluff into you, other guy will still fold.

[odomination]

River seems read/ feel dependant, don't know what to tell you. I play the rest of this hand about the same way.

[Buzz]

Dan - Very interesting.

I would not play this starting hand for a half bet from the small blind.

My decision after this flop against two/four opponents who saw the flop would be tougher. Very tough. I try to stay out of these tough decision spots by not playing hands like this one to begin with. I guess I have a slight preference for folding here, but it's close.

You pick up the nut flush draw after the turn, in addition to the low draw and the paired queens. After coming this far, it would be an easy call for me on the third betting round.

Then you miss on the river and normally would check/fold, but BB gives the tell.

Then you're still planning to check/fold when BB gives a second tell.

The first tell is difficult to read. Does BB want a nine or not? Probably not, but maybe. I'd tentatively put him on a low draw. But he could also already have the straight and have a redraw to a full house. Or he could have two pairs or a set and want the board to pair. Hard to know for sure.

The second tell looks a lot like BB doesn't want you to bet. But it's so obviously a tell that he might be faking the tell (making a reverse tell).

You only profit by betting if one of these guys has an ace or king or has made two pairs or a set and folds to your bet. And that is a possibility.

But since you didn't bet the turn, it doesn't look as though you have the straight. And since you didn't bet the flop, it doesn't look as though you have a set. And the nine could hardly have helped you enough to warrant a bet. Thus your own bet looks phoney.

But I don't know if these guys would read that or not.

I don't think your river bet is unreasonable, given your reads. Might work against KXYZ or AXYZ.

I hate playing with opponents who act like BB. Any fun BB is having with his antics is at your expense. He's basically taunting you. Not much you can do about it. Goes with the territory, I suppose.

"Spidey" doesn't mean anything to me. Should it?

Buzz

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
So I take it the reason you bet was to knockout the guy that clearly missed? I'd still check because BB is betting here when checked to for sure, even with Jack high. Let him bluff into you, other guy will still fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't induce a bluff when I have a bad queen high, no pair. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Arrgh, my line "Please note: I forget if the Queen came on the flop or it was in fact the queen" should read "Please note: I forget if the Queen came on the flop or it was in fact the KING."

[DanS]

[ QUOTE ]
Dan - Very interesting.

I would not play this starting hand for a half bet from the small blind.

My decision after this flop against two/four opponents who saw the flop would be tougher. Very tough. I try to stay out of these tough decision spots by not playing hands like this one to begin with. I guess I have a slight preference for folding here, but it's close.

You pick up the nut flush draw after the turn, in addition to the low draw and the paired queens. After coming this far, it would be an easy call for me on the third betting round.

Then you miss on the river and normally would check/fold, but BB gives the tell.

Then you're still planning to check/fold when BB gives a second tell.

The first tell is difficult to read. Does BB want a nine or not? Probably not, but maybe. I'd tentatively put him on a low draw. But he could also already have the straight and have a redraw to a full house. Or he could have two pairs or a set and want the board to pair. Hard to know for sure.

The second tell looks a lot like BB doesn't want you to bet. But it's so obviously a tell that he might be faking the tell (making a reverse tell).

You only profit by betting if one of these guys has an ace or king or has made two pairs or a set and folds to your bet. And that is a possibility.

But since you didn't bet the turn, it doesn't look as though you have the straight. And since you didn't bet the flop, it doesn't look as though you have a set. And the nine could hardly have helped you enough to warrant a bet. Thus your own bet looks phoney.

But I don't know if these guys would read that or not.

I don't think your river bet is unreasonable, given your reads. Might work against KXYZ or AXYZ.

I hate playing with opponents who act like BB. Any fun BB is having with his antics is at your expense. He's basically taunting you. Not much you can do about it. Goes with the territory, I suppose.

"Spidey" doesn't mean anything to me. Should it?

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Buzz,

Your analysis is great as usual. A few points/comments:

I played this hand for 2/3 of a small bet as the pot was killed, and I fear that that was my largest mistake of the hand. I think if it had been for 1/2 a bet and I had been getting 9:1, a call would have been reasonable.

When I say "spidey sense," I mean that tiny feeling you get when you're playing/reading hands/assigning hand ranges well. Just that sense that something is out of whack, and you're in a 'perceptive zone' where you can feel it. I felt that there was a good chance that with the (situational) raggedness of the board, there was a good chance that the BB had merely a decent ace, and that with the protection from the old man, he might give me credit for a hand as I had been showing down nothing but the nuts when I had taken the initiative in previous hands (and even fold a small aces up). Obviously the decision to bet was instantaneous and based on feel, but I felt good that I was able to bring all the available info together so quickly.

Thanks,
Dan

edit: Buzz, I picked up the 6 high flush draw, not the nut flush draw. You are correct that I turned a pair... a river 2, 4, or 6 would have made my decision between c/c and c/f close, pending old man's river action. Hmm, that's a good question given the circumstances. On a river 2, what do you do with your poor two pair/2nd nut low?

[DanS]

I bet the river, BB deliberates and flashed AQ (almost top two) which he flopped (I think, like I said I may have mixed up the K and Q on flop and turn), old man thinks for half a second and folds.

BB says smugly something to the effect of, "Way to go. You had it and you lost $120 on the turn.' Good job. I just kept quiet and stacked up my $700 (even though I vaguely did want to tell him how badly he just got owned).

Clearly I think the 'protection' offered by old man and the inability of BB to assign him a hand range and a motive to my bet was the only way my stab worked. Heads up, I would not have made the bet.

Dan

[I dunno]

Ok so I did a [censored] job of reading ur post sorry. I must have missed that.

I also thought it read that you knew the old guy was about to muck, not BB. I like the bet much more now, because according to your read the old man isn't calling a bet here.

I'd say you get called here a lot by two pair, but I like it. You'll make up for the bet when people call you down later when your holding the nuts both ways.


You think he had like AQ2w here?

[I dunno]

And after reading through your post again, seeing that he fancies himself to be a great player, he might want to show a "great laydown" to prove how great he is to the table. But that opinion could be influenced now that I know what the final action was, so take it with a grain of salt.