20/40 Commerce, a fine point on straddling.

[cero_z]

Hey rbk,

Small point, but all I was saying is that Villain didn't necessarily play his hand badly, if he had a physical read. It would make sense FROM VILLAIN'S POV to move all-in with a strong hand if he had a read that Hero would call (like if "Hero" in this hand had been anyone else at the table, who would've treated K3 like the mortal nuts), and could beat Hero's hand. The advantage would be not allowing a scare card to come off that would kill Villain's action (like the 9 pairing).

Similarly, Villain was prolly acting on a physical read to shove there, since he's supposed to be good and he had an incredibly weak hand. OP might be wrong about him, though; he could've been a maniac running hot or whatever.

[riverboatking]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey rbk,

Small point, but all I was saying is that Villain didn't necessarily play his hand badly, if he had a physical read. It would make sense FROM VILLAIN'S POV to move all-in with a strong hand if he had a read that Hero would call (like if "Hero" in this hand had been anyone else at the table, who would've treated K3 like the mortal nuts), and could beat Hero's hand. The advantage would be not allowing a scare card to come off that would kill Villain's action (like the 9 pairing).



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fair enough i def. see your point.
my only counter would be that hero has a an image of good lag

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Game is playing very loose-aggressive, I've been there for about an hour and my image is probably a good LAG

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and if that is in fact how villian views him then he should be even more inclined to call in this spot.

if villian views him as a good lag then he can def. put hero on a squeeze play and so if he has a real hand why kill the action?
and if he indeed views hero as good then he must know that not only is he capable of squeezing but he's also capable of laying down a good second best hand.

[Kirkrrr]

I actually thought his play made sense with a hand that beat me because it was obvious I had a big hand and wasn't just screwing around on the flop, so an all-in raise by Villain here would've made sense with a set of 333 or whatnot since -as has been mentioned already- most people in my spot would've called.

In fact, it's kinda interesting since on one hand everyone is advocating a call, while on the other rbk is arguing (and I agree to a certain extent) "why would he push if he had a big hand?"... but isn't the irony pretty apparent right there?

Kirk

[Nate.]

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I actually thought his play made sense with a hand that beat me because it was obvious I had a big hand and wasn't just screwing around on the flop, so an all-in raise by Villain here would've made sense with a set of 333 or whatnot since -as has been mentioned already- most people in my spot would've called.

In fact, it's kinda interesting since on one hand everyone is advocating a call, while on the other rbk is arguing (and I agree to a certain extent) "why would he push if he had a big hand?"... but isn't the irony pretty apparent right there?

Kirk

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Kirk --

We're bordering on a game-theory discussion here. So he'll bluff sometimes, you'll fold sometimes, he'll just call sometimes, you'll wait for the turn sometimes. That's all well and good.

When you're done with all the "but if he knows X dont' I know Y?" stuff you get back to thinking about how strong your hand is, which (of course) dictates what you'll do, or almost always do, in a spot like this. And your hand is way too strong to (usually) fold. Of course people are advocating calling: people also advocate calling with KK preflop and 50BB stacks, and if AA can take advantage of that so be it.

--Nate

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

This is just about the worst situation ever. It seems like you are ahead a lot but maybe not enough to flip your hand over for the rest of the hand. You are really all out of options here and I'm never sure what to do here. I often lead though and dont find myself here.

[Post-Oak]

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Game is playing very loose-aggressive, I've been there for about an hour and my image is probably a good LAG. From the few comments Villain made so far my impression of him is same (apparently he's a regular). He's got about 5k, I cover.

I straddle for 80, 2 limpers, Villain limps in MP3, blinds fold, I take 2 seconds to bitch that I can't even raise and check. I have K,3o.

Flop: 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (380)

I check(?), fishy EP limper bets out 260, Villain raises to 660. What my move?

Kirk

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I mentioned this once before and no one commented, but when you straddle you effectively double the stakes of the game. I honestly assumed everyone would think about this the same way, but after reading this thread I am not so sure.

When you straddle here, you are playing 20-40-80 and you just folded top and bottom to a short stack. Does anyone disagree with this concept?

Look at it this way... The guy has $5K. That is 125 BB at 20-40, and 83.33 times the total antes. So he has a respectable stack size for a 20-40 game.

When you straddle, the game becomes 20-40-80. He now has 62.5 BBs and 35.7 times the total antes. In other words, you have slightly more than doubled the stakes of the game, and this guy is a short stack.

Let's pretend all the players were the same, but you did not straddle and villain started the hand with $2.5K. Would you fold for $1600 after check-raising to $800 straight? Maybe you would... It is definitely possible depending on your read. Maybe I am a sucker versus short stacks, but I am usually calling here, and given your description of game conditions, I am basically always calling.

One thing I wonder is if the "fishy" player is viewed as a calling station? If this is the case, then it is less likely for villain to be running a bluff. Or is he "fishy" because he can be pushed around, is too straight forward, etc.?

If you don't want to play a $200K pot with top and bottom, then never play in a $1K-2K no limit game. If you don't want to play a $10K pot, then don't play 20-40-80. In other words, don't straddle. Does this make sense? Would you fold this in a 20-40-80 game to a guy who starts the hand with only $5K?