Overplaying KK?

Xibalba · #1 10-12-2007, 03:27 AM

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Button (t1485)
SB (t1605)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
Hero (t1410)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]], K[[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]].
2 folds, Hero raises to t90, 3 folds, Button calls t90, 2 folds.

Flop: (t225) 2[[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]], J[[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]], 6[[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (2 players)
Hero bets t225, Button calls t225.

Turn: (t675) 4[[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (2 players)
Hero bets t675, Button calls t675.

River: (t2025) J[[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t495 (All-In), Hero calls t420 (All-In).

Final Pot: t2940

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kh Kc (two pair, kings and jacks).
Button has 2h 2s (full house, twos full of jacks).
Outcome: Button wins t2940. 

My questions here would be:
a) How stupid am I?
b) Is this completely wrong, or is this one of those situations where "oh well, that's that" is the appropriate response? FWIW, at the moment I figured he had AJ (I've seen tptk being overplayed in superlow-buyin tourneys)
c) I called the river bet pretty much as poker harakiri. I know that's not optimal, but I didn't think there was much of a point in bothering to play such a short stack, that early on... and perhaps he had QQ, TT or something of the sort.

basementproject · #2 10-12-2007, 03:32 AM

Pretty standard. Maybe just check the turn?

The call on the river isn't that bad as you were essentially committed. However, with blinds this low, you probably could have worked your stack back up easily.

Post this in MTT or STT (whichever it was) and see what they say.

Xibalba · #3 10-12-2007, 03:44 AM

Thanks for the reply,
Should I delete it from here, or just repost?
Not sure on proper procedure here.

pzhon · #4 10-12-2007, 03:45 AM

It's very hard to overplay a KK overpair when you start with a stack of 50 big blinds and raise preflop. You don't really have room to become convinced you are behind before showdown.

The river call was justifiable because you were getting great odds, and there was a flush draw which missed. Your opponent could be bluffing with something like A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], both of which could call the pot-sized bet on the turn, and something like 64 was counterfeited on the river and might bluff. They aren't how I would play those hands, but others might, and you were getting 6:1 odds. Despite the results, you can discount many strong made hands because you were not raised on the drawish flop or turn.

It's a common misconception that a small stack is not valuable. However, your last chips are the most valuable, since they come with a disproportionately large chance of second and lower places. So, don't give up your last few chips lightly.

pzhon · #5 10-12-2007, 04:09 AM

I think you should repost the hand (it should be too late to delete it, anyway), with some modifications. In general, you should not give the results immediately, or ask a leading question such as where you can find a fold, since this will bias the discussion. Many people will be more comfortable rationalizing whatever would work better against your opponent's actual hand instead of giving you the percentage play given the information you had at the time.

You might ask how much to bet on the turn, and cut off the rest of the hand. Or, you can cut the hand off just before your river check, or just before your river call, and ask about those decisions. You can post the results after a day.

Xibalba · #6 10-12-2007, 04:28 AM

Thanks, pzhon, you've been very helpful.
I'll probably do that tomorrow, what with it being 3:30 in the morning. But, thanks again, it's appreciated.

I guess the turn bet is what I have to ask about. Perhaps if I had bet a different amount, I would've gotten enough info from a hypothetical re-raise to get away at the river and if I had been ahead, I think I could've stil been able of getting chips in at the river.

Thanks again, anyway.

tarheeljks · #7 10-12-2007, 04:38 AM

double barreling is standard here, but the bets don't need to be pot sized (unless you know he's a station and will call w/the same range as if the bets were 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot.

Icarus152 · #8 10-12-2007, 06:58 AM

Is it correct for me to say hero induced villan to make a mistake pf?
OK,I understand villan has optimal position but isn't it incorrect to call a 3BB raise with pocket 2's.The chances of making trips are 1 in 10ish.

Am I wrong here? I'd fold pocket 2's in face of a raise,do you think this is an over-tight approach?

Rek · #9 10-12-2007, 07:37 AM

You played it fine. The only time you were putting this down was after the 2nd J on river. Once he goes all in it is likely he has any 2 pair beat and I would have guessed at trip J's as well.

However, at that stage it is very difficult to lay down. Just one of those things and you got very unlucky. Most of us lose our stack there as well.

pzhon · #10 10-12-2007, 07:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is it correct for me to say hero induced villan to make a mistake pf?
OK,I understand villan has optimal position but isn't it incorrect to call a 3BB raise with pocket 2's.The chances of making trips are 1 in 10ish.

Am I wrong here? I'd fold pocket 2's in face of a raise,do you think this is an over-tight approach?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not always right, and it's not always wrong. Ideally, the roughly 1/8 of the time you flop a set, you hope to win your opponent's stack. (It's about 1/8 if you know your opponent does not have a card of your rank, and 1/8.5 if you don't have any information.) However,

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You don't always see a flop, since someone could reraise behind you.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You don't get all of the money in all of the time, since a player with AK unimproved or JJ on an AKx flop will rarely stack off.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] You don't win all of the time all of the money goes in. You win about 80% of the time when your opponent started with a higher pair, since you are sometimes up against a higher set, or your opponent catches his two outs, or makes a 1-card straight or flush, or the board plays for a tie. Winning a stack 80% of the time and losing a stack 20% of the time averages to winning only 60% of a stack. You win more frequently against an unpaired hand which hits the flop, but it is still not 100% of a stack.

So, even in position, you can't profitably call more than about 8% of the effective stacks for set value alone, and against some opponents you need larger stacks, or no stack size will make the call profitable, even in terms of the expected chips.

Since the call is about 6% of the effective stack size, and the initial raise was from a relatively early position hence will be a strong hand on the flop more frequently, it looks like it is a close call to me. I think it might be right due to the chance to win against missed overcards, not set value alone.