Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.

[citanul]

chess,

wrong thread man, there's like a trillion other threads in this forum where people have been pointing out (amongst other things) that the "googletard" rule is incredibly stupid.

c

[Dids]

The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it. I don't think you need a specific rule to nuke bad lazy posts if that rule then means that other less bad posts get nuked too.

Although, NT's point is probalby "regardless of the fairness of the rule, it's in the sticky" and I agree with that.

That said, a bit of searching through OOT probably would be more effective than a new NYC dinner thread.

[*TT*]

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I would say 2p2's standards are about I dunno, bellybutton level.

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As always Bellybutton level is relitive. My bellybutton is higher than Did's, I am taller than him. The forums he moderate need a lower bellybutton threshold than my forum. The problem comes when people from the low bellybutton threshold forums explore other forums with a higher bellybutton threshold and mess with their culture - you get pissed off users or disenchanted end users.

I'd like to counter some of the things we have read so far i this thread.

1) I think the median age of 2+2 isnt as low as everyone thinks, we are postulating it is around 25-26.

2) There are countless older people I meet who refuse to post on 2+2 because the regulars are childish.

I think there is a balance in this mix somewhere. Back in the day when Studio 54 was the center of the universe Steve Rubell used to stand outside behind the velvet ropes (Studio 54 was kinda the first disco that chose who was allowed to come in) creating what he called a "Mixed Sallad". If he only let in beautiful people and celebrities then people would get bored. If he let in too many average Joes the celebrities would leave. He was a master of balance, he made sure that everyone who came inside felt the same experience, and everyone would become equal once they passed the velvet ropes. Of course there is not a 2+2 VIP guest list, no velvet ropes and anyone is invited to post here, but I think we can learn from Steve's approach. If we tilt to far to one segment we loose balance of the user mix.

[jman220]

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tuq, jman220, NT!, stabn

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I feel as though I'm in good company there.

[NT!]

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NT! is a good example of a mod who enjoys showing he needn't comply with 2+2 rules on profanity, insults, etc.).

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NT! has been acting like quite the tool lately, as evidenced by the following directed at me in open forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post12191401

Apparently, he doesn't quite understand the difference between a Google listing and a personal recommendation.

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the rule is that you put some thought and effort into the post, do some of your own research and then come to the forum for an opinion. how hard is it to pull a couple places off menupages before you post? especially for something like a dinner recommendation in a particular city where only a small percentage of the forum's users live that will be of absolutely zero interest to everyone else. especially when there is another forum that specifically exists for this kind of issue (travel) and when the EDGF has had a big thread on NYC where you could start. this circumstance is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the OOT sticky several times and yet you failed to grasp it.

i know the difference between googletarding and a personal recommendation. apparently you don't take the time to read and follow the rules in the forums you frequent, which reflects poorly on you as a mod IMO.

[NT!]

also if i managed to get kaj to stop posting on this site by being mean to him in ATF then good riddance. i'm sure he has a new account already or will soon. he is a terrible poster.

in fact, most of the people saying 'if you don't fit into the little mod clique you are [censored]' are just plain bad posters who refuse to follow the rules in OT forums. this site permits a LOT of criticism of mods and a lot of extremely juvenile posts from users who have never contributed anything to this site. there are plenty of posters who have criticized me in the past who i have never acted against and even become pretty cool with (see: many of the BBV posters who don't suck).

this whole 'mods are like a gang who beat up on us unpopular posters' has become popular because we have several loosely moderated forums (ATF, BBV) that basically cater to posters who have been cast out of other forums for sucking. (that is not everyone in BBV but there is a contingent there) they are going to develop a culture and, being feeble-minded 14 year olds with lots of angst, of course that culture is going to be "look at me i'm a loner i'm a rebel i'm an outsider."

i'm not saying we should do anything about this - ATF and BBV are very popular forums that are sometimes very entertaining. i'm saying you people have to look rationally at the root causes of things like this and not wring your hands so much because someone we don't want posting here in the first place says (probably falsely) that he's never coming back.

[MEbenhoe]

PM makes a good point. I used to enjoy the [censored] style of moderation, but the schtick is worn out, or maybe he just owned it better.

I agree with NT and others who say that most of the complaints in ATF are ridiculous. And I think its obvious that forums like BBV/BBV4L are pretty much bringing the entire site down as this attitude spreads. I still see no reason for moderators of the site to act like [censored] to the forum members.

I've posted on a few different forums, some where the mods were employees and others where they were volunteers, and I've never come across one where mods acted as they do on this site.

[NT!]

i won't dispute that mods are much more abrasive on this site than most others i can think of. (SOSH has some very bitchy mods too, and a similar tone at times).

i think if people are really concerned about this, it's fair to look at mod selection. it's also fair to look at how much absolute bull [censored] some of the mods on this site are exposed to with absolutely no recourse to stop it. again, as a result of having several loosely modded forums where a culture of rebellion and negativity and puerile angst is the norm.

this doesn't particularly bother me (i can dish it out much better than the chumps in ATF anyway). if this site ever made a major move to say 'mods can't be mean like regular posters,' i would respond by saying that mods and admins should do more to defend each other from unreasonable attack if they want that to be realistic. and if that was a direction the site wanted to go i would fall in line with it.

[NT!]

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The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it. I don't think you need a specific rule to nuke bad lazy posts if that rule then means that other less bad posts get nuked too.

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you've kind of hit on it right here. in some ways having a hard and fast rule is quite cumbersome, it can be hard to articulate all the ins and outs of a decision to make a thread or not in a rule that people will still read. the problem is that if i don't make a relatively specific rule, people REALLY don't get it, and they complain about the uncertainty.

what i've basically done is write a rule where no thread i lock will not meet at least one or two of those criteria, so i can always point to it. but it doesn't mean i lock every thread that fits at least one of those definitions, because that would suck.

there is no way to enforce an absolute letter of the law on this rule and not have the forum be essentially dead, but chesspain's thread was out of order in about three or four different ways, so in that case it's really not close.

i don't believe in simply saying 'it's right because it's the rule,' in this case it's right because i've listed a bunch of reasons why someone should NOT make that post, and they each individually and as a whole contribute to making OOT more readable.

[El Diablo]

Dibs,

"The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it."

Like many individual forum rules, it serves to facilitate a better experience for the users based on the forum goals as determined by the moderators.