tips for getting full-time offer on Wall St.

[higher_energy]

I guess I will get straight to the point. I want to get a full time offer on Wall St. after I graduate in one of the top ibanks at the desk. I know what it takes and I am willing to work as hard as necessary because I want this job. Obviously, there are a few problems, at least the way I see it:

1) I go to a good school but its not in the top 10 core schools from which these companies recruit.
2) I do well in school but I do not have a 3.7 mainly because I have been on the rowing team throughout all of college which was a huge commitment. It’s my senior year and after a lot of though I quit this season.
3) I interned in a foreign ibank this summer.

Basically, my main concern is surviving the resume scan which is very tough. Should I put poker among interests? How can I stand out among all the 4.0 candidates from Harvard who’s older brother is a senior analyst at Bear or JP?

I am fairly confident that I can get it if I get a chance to interview.

There is a number of people here with experience in trading so if anybody has any tips or insider advice that is not covered in any of the presentations, books, career offices and online, please let me know. I really appreciate all the help…Thanks a lot.

[gimpoone]

Some answers to your questions:

1. What school exactly do you go to? Most places actually don't really care about the school you go to, they just frequent the ivy leagues, because any idiot knows, the 'smarter' crowd is there.
2. What's your GPA? You saying you don't have a 3.7 means diddly, is it more like a 2.7? Rowing team is good, they like candidates that compete in sports.
3. So what, you interned just like 90% of the candidates, won't hurt, but won't help much.

How I got into the industry...you are right, they will probably throw your resume away unless it says Harvard/Yale, etc. Seeing as you don't go there, I'd suggest you network with someone in the company that went to your school. Drop him an email and say what's up...I went to XXXX school just like you, wondering if you wanted to meet up for lunch to chat about how I can break into the XXXX field you want to get in on Wall Street. Turns out the first trading firm I worked at, the President was an alma mater at my school, so I got to bypass all the crap interviews, interviewed with him and the CEO and the rest was said and done, hired.

Tell them you play poker and blackjack, I remember when I was talking to some Susquehanna reps at a job fair, one of the hot chicks asked me if I played blackjack...I was totally caught off guard and I said yeah, I play blackjack every so often when I go to Atlantic City and Vegas. That's all she asked and took my resume. Couple days later, I get a call for first interview...don't know if it was the blackjack answer, but I figure if they ask, it must be somewhat 'important'. Visit www.thevault.com, good site for this kind of stuff.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]

Tell them you play poker and blackjack, I remember when I was talking to some Susquehanna reps at a job fair, one of the hot chicks asked me if I played blackjack...I was totally caught off guard and I said yeah, I play blackjack every so often when I go to Atlantic City and Vegas. That's all she asked and took my resume. Couple days later, I get a call for first interview...don't know if it was the blackjack answer, but I figure if they ask, it must be somewhat 'important'.

[/ QUOTE ]
You'd be a fool NOT to follow this advice.

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to get a full time offer on Wall St. after I graduate in one of the top ibanks at the desk. I know what it takes

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, obviously not. I'm sure you see why.

[ QUOTE ]
and I am willing to work as hard as necessary because I want this job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy to say, harder to do, much harder to prove. Are you up for 3 consecutive 110 hour weeks? Are you up for 3 days and 2 nites str8 working on the same pitch, leaving to shower and change only, and then flying down to ATL yourself to deliver by noon, after finishing the books at 7 am?

Are you really? Think hard. Because I've yet to meet the I-banking analyst who does, and I've worked with and met several hundred of them.
Okay, maybe 2 or 3 of them were so lifeless and dull they didn't mind having no life, like, ever. Maybe 3 of them.

[ QUOTE ]

1) I go to a good school but its not in the top 10 core schools from which these companies recruit.
2) I do well in school but I do not have a 3.7 mainly because I have been on the rowing team throughout all of college which was a huge commitment. It’s my senior year and after a lot of though I quit this season.
3) I interned in a foreign ibank this summer.


[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant x3.
I had a 3.3 and bagged the best Ibank in the known Universe out of undergrad. No one cares about your GPA. No one cared when I went to IBank 2, and then to IBank #3. Never came up. [Obvs by then work experience counted more, but still.]
I talked more about craps in 90% of my interviews, or basketball than anything else.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, my main concern is surviving the resume scan which is very tough. Should I put poker among interests? How can I stand out among all the 4.0 candidates from Harvard who’s older brother is a senior analyst at Bear or JP?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) You will NOT get a job with your resume, pretty much ever.
2) Listing Poker/bj/ and/or craps is a must-do.
3) It's all about the networking.


[ QUOTE ]

There is a number of people here with experience in trading so if anybody has any tips or insider advice that is not covered in any of the presentations, books, career offices and online, please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trading is not I-banking, this post now makes no sense to me. Which do you want?

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
the best Ibank in the known Universe

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't be bashful, tell us who this is.

[BDaws]

[ QUOTE ]
the best Ibank in the known Universe

[/ QUOTE ]
Must be Goldman, no?

Also, to the OP, read Monkey Business before you get involved in the i-banking world. It's a pretty eye opening book. I had always envisioned myself going with this career path, but I don't think I can bring myself to now.

[thing85]

Public accounting is the way to go.


*pukes*

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
Public accounting is the way to go.


*pukes*

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not exactly clear what job the OP thinks he wants, but public accounting isn't the way to any of them.

[AvivaSimplex]

I understand why poker and to a lesser extent counting at blackjack might be good experience for a trader (not sure about I-banking). Why craps, though? Doesn't that pretty much just show you don't understand probability?

[NajdorfDefense]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why poker and to a lesser extent counting at blackjack might be good experience for a trader (not sure about I-banking). Why craps, though? Doesn't that pretty much just show you don't understand probability?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would reply that it shows you are able to understand and combine knowledge of probability, expectation, money mgmt and bankroll skills, while also understanding it is a negative EV game, *but* the best EV table game in the casino combined with the ability to have fun and be social, as opposed to the plain nerdy-counts-cards- at bj-but-maybe can't-talk/work-with-others Nit mentality.

Besides, anyone can say they can count down a 6-deck shoe perfectly, not like they will test you during an interview, read for 3 minutes on how it works and you can fake expertise, a deep understanding of craps [and other -EV casino games] gives you chance to show that you understand variance and risk mgmt, etc, like to live a little, are social, what kind of person you are, are you a don't bettor, do you make the horribly bad craps bets, etc.

Again, I had them all on there, no one wanted to talk about counting cards except one firm, 90% of them want to talk about how to play craps, or great craps runs they had -- then you're foot in the door a step up on the other 499 undergrads trying to claw past you. 90% of traders I've worked with on Wall St have played/still play craps - floor traders, pit traders, fx traders, futures traders, forwards traders, swap traders, option traders. It's like a club, and OP/you want to be in it, so that's jmho.

If you're interviewing for a PM job at a deep-value shop, I'd just put poker on there and *not* craps. Like most things, it may depend on the situation.

Look, these people interview dozens of people a day, 500 per year per school they cover in some cases. I covered the SE/ and historically black colleges for my I-bank. I [and everyone else] figures you can DCF, you can model, you're not a lying thief, you work hard, etc, but that's hard to prove in 30 mins. What people really, really WANT is someone who is personable and fun to work with, combined with smarts [and looks] if possible - talk about the BCS, talk about postmodern French Lit, talk about poker, Beethoven, make yourself stand out. {Bonus hint - a listing of poker, skiing, running marathons will make you one of every 2 resumes I see. No joke. No, sailing/cycling doesn't do it either. Banks get 3-500 of resumes per school often, recruiting teams may cover 7-10 schools or more.}

Or you have no shot. Plain and simple. When I started working in downtown NYC I got hired as 1 of 4 analysts in my I-banking dept, I dunno what the # of applicants was, but it could easily have been 4000, or much more.

When I moved to top 5 I-bank #3, I was given the chance to start my own P+L within that dept for an under-served and somewhat unique set of bank's clients. I increased profits by 600% in less than 3 years taking virtually zero market or vol risk [obvs this means lots of hedging]. Within 2 years I had the 2nd most profits and highest quality revenues on the desk.

Perhaps subconsciously pitching myself as the 'careful, cautious trader' who *hates* to lose bank's/OPM at work, but likes to let loose at the Mirage craps table every now and then with his own money rang very true and real to the MD's that interviewed and hired me. I don't really know. They'd rather have that than the cowboys who sank Sumitomo and Granite and Amaranth, I can vouch for that.

To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter a whit if you start at Mitsui, or Wachovia, or some 3rd-tier trading shop, the cream almost always rises to the top, eventually, in this industry. Smart, savvy, sober, consistently good-to-great, hardworking [which can mean 95+ hours a week and 3 days off a year including weekends] employees are a lot harder to come by than you'd think. It's not a sprint, so don't stress too much about tying the knot with your 'dream firm.' My resume gets me in for an interview anywhere, but that's as far as it goes. After that, it's how you interview and fit with your desired firm.

Best of luck to you.

Naj

In life, like craps, luck plays a much larger role than you may think. Maybe that was it...