Legal workaround/possible $$ laundering for US players?

[BigAlK]

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Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country

You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

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Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

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I decided to look it up. The IRS Website says that prior to June 2004 you weren't liable for taxes if you renounced your citizenship for other than tax reasons. It appears that this is not the case after that ("Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition of the expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years following expatriation"). What this means in real terms (ie "certain types of income") I don't know.

[oldbookguy]

Agreed Engineer, mods?

obg

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

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Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

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Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

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Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

Oh I see, you wouldn't tell them WHY you were renouncing your citizenship.

I see, but wouldn't that be lying to the government for the purpose of evading legally imposed taxes?

I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

[TheEngineer]

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Posturing for or against taxes aside, the real issue is the punitive way the IRS treats gambling income. Break-even or losing online poker players who do not itemize deductions technically owe taxes on their poker "income."

And if online gambling is legalized and regulated, they'll all get a bill from Uncle for taxes they didn't think they owed.

That's real battle, and everybody (usually kids with little life experience) either ignore that point, or gloss it over with sanctimonious and ignorant "pay your taxes" comments.

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I don't imagine our best argument would be that we don't wish to pay our taxes because we don't like the tax code. I imagine Harrah's and MGM will lobby for reporting similar to that of B&M casinos. Who knows what will happen, but perhaps the idea that we should resist regulation because we'll have to follow existing law really should be considered a nonstarter, at least IMHO.

[TheEngineer]

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Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


You could do that, but you'd still be required to pay US income taxes for 10 years. Look it up.

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Only if you leave specifically for tax reasons, actually.

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Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

Oh I see, you wouldn't tell them WHY you were renouncing your citizenship.

I see, but wouldn't that be lying to the government for the purpose of evading legally imposed taxes?

I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

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I'd leave because the government has grown well beyond its constitutional constraints. Again, it's the spending that's the problem. Taxes are just us getting the bill for all those bridges to nowhere and income redistribution payments.

[BigAlK]

I know this is a response to The Engineer's post, but since a good portion of it quotes mine I'll respond too.

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Don't know what it would be specifically, but it would probably have to be something serious enough to cause me to renounce my US citizenship and move to another country


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Well, yes, but isn't that the whole point of what you said. If the tax laws became so unfair you'd consider renouncing your citizenship?

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You're assuming that my reason would be tax related. Chances are that it wouldn't be. The most consideration I've given to actually doing this was due to other issues with the current administration (Patriot act, Iraq war, etc).

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I not busting your chops here, just pointing out that you too have a threshhold past which you have no moral compunction against violating a law. That's fine. Just be aware that others may have lower threshholds than you.

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My past posts were very clear that I understood that. I'm sure The Engineer does as well.

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People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

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i volunteer to stop using the DEA, IRS, and the DoD.

i think the fundamental issue is that most of you who advocate "pay the taxes or leave the country" believe this land is owned by the federal government and we just live here. i believe we own the land and the federal goverment is just a group of people we allow to run things until they piss us off.

yeah, this probably should move to politics but then the hardcores will scare most of the average people away and it will degrade into another statist vs anarchist.

[zaah1]

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IMO, legalizing internet poker without revising the tax code will chase away way more fish than the UIGEA.

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Which is why there's no sense worry about taxes since the tax code will obviously updated. IMO, it will be like at B&M where only cashouts overs some high threshold will be automatically taxed.

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The tax code *obviously* will be updated? Please cite a source for that speculation.

The only reason that B&Ms are treated as they are is the sheer impossibility of tracking all winnings/losses. On an internet site, no such impediment exists and the recording of winning sessions/losing sessions for individual players becomes only a matter of writing x lines of code.

I'd like what you say to be true but have no idea why Uncle would reduce the total amount of immediate tax revenue that would come from legailzation. I mean, tax revenue is one of the biggest arguments for legalization.

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All of the people that are excited about tax revenue are excited about tax revenue from the companies. Not income tax from individuals.

[TheEngineer]

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People have been saying that since the Whiskey Rebellion. If taxes were voluntary, no one would pay them. Maybe we should protest by not using government services. I know I'd be happy with a government 1/3 its current size.

It's clearly time for this conversation to move to Politics.

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i volunteer to stop using the DEA, IRS, and the DoD.

i think the fundamental issue is that most of you who advocate "pay the taxes or leave the country" believe this land is owned by the federal government and we just live here. i believe we own the land and the federal goverment is just a group of people we allow to run things until they piss us off.

yeah, this probably should move to politics but then the hardcores will scare most of the average people away and it will degrade into another statist vs anarchist.

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I'm no statist. I'm as libertarian as anyone here. However, we're not talking about Federal tyranny as much as we're talking about tyranny of the majority. Still tyranny, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of the system. We need to fight for our individual rights on election day.

As for tax protesters, it seems many are "silently protesting" by not paying. Is that really a protest, or is it simply hoping to get away with not paying taxes?

Anyway, every government ever in existence has collected mandatory taxes. I don't think advocating tax resistance on this public board will do us any good.

[driller]

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Look, what you are theoretically discussing, would run into FBAR, money laundering, tax evasion problems, and probably some I haven't thought of yet. I suggest you just get your own account and suffer though the increased inconviences of cashing. If you get caught under your scenario, they would be able to throw the book at you. It is much safer that way.


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1. I pay taxes on my winnings, as per the tax law. You have to pay taxes whether you withdraw or not. So if I deposit 100,000, lose 50,000, then withdraw the 50,000 I have left, I do not owe taxes on that withdrawal.

2. Reqesting a ck from PS, then cashing it when they send it to me violates no laws.

3. So far, the government does not consider the poker sites "financial institutions", so FBAR does not come in to play.

4. Your post is mostly bs.