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  #11  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:03 PM
bilbo-san bilbo-san is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

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why not call and if you spike an A or K he stacks anyways. seems to be a waste to shove.

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You flop an ace or king only 33% of the time.
What's your plan the other 66%?

Not 4betting here is so gross.

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That sounds so horrible. Your strategy is basically to play pre-flop poker against an opponent whose flaw is playing badly after the flop.

Against this opponent, you want to see flops and decide on the flop if you want to call him down or not.

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Uh...no.

You are advocating sacrificing a 2:1 edge preflop because you hope that you can get an even bigger post-flop edge.

That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Completely ignoring pre-flop equity just because you have a post-flop edge (even a big one) is pretty bad. Especially vs. a guy like this where you don't even need to worry about balancing your 4-bet ranges. Stick to premiums because he's never folding anyway.
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:14 PM
JFsports JFsports is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

to people who want to get all in, we realise it's 300BBs deep right? And from the OP "He didn't seem to 3 bet pre-flop light at all."
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:29 PM
saskaman saskaman is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

I have seen more of these types of players and have the same question. The mistake I have been making is trying to get at their money before they lose it all as you stated. Playing hard preflop with AK is always a flip. Against this type of opponent I think ABC poker is the only profitable 'strategy'. He sees all your bets as bluffs so don't bluff, the truth is soooo hard to believe.

If you have more discipline/skill then flipping is bad imo against a maniac/drunk. He plays bad post flop therefore play well postflop. It really is that simple.
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:32 PM
saskaman saskaman is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Uhhh... so AK is better than 77 because....?
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2007, 09:56 PM
PokrLikeItsProse PokrLikeItsProse is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

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You are advocating sacrificing a 2:1 edge preflop because you hope that you can get an even bigger post-flop edge.


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Please, show me where we have a 2:1 edge preflop here.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:12 PM
pineapple888 pineapple888 is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

I just call with position, this deep. Under-reps our hand a bit, he won't get away when we have him dominated. If we whiff and he bets, oh well, fold and on to the next hand.

Edit: never cbet a whiff, obv.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:19 PM
bilbo-san bilbo-san is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

[ QUOTE ]
That's a huge sacrifice. This is one hand. It doesn't define our strategy. You have a tremendous edge on this hand pre-flop that you can't sacrifice.

But I wouldn't want to get all-in pre-flop with 77 even though it is ahead of his range, because then my edge is small. See what I'm getting at?

Uhhh... so AK is better than 77 because....?

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Dude, if you're going to be snide, you should try to be right.

Seriously? Assume his range is wide. Vs. a wide range, AK is a big favorite. Vs. a wide range, 77 is only a marginal favorite. If his range is wide, AK dominates far more hands than 77, and is dominated by far fewer hands than 77. I really have to spell this out?

If you get all in and he flips over AJ (or KQ, or AQ, or QJ), which would you rather have, AK or 77?

How about if he flips QQ or KK? Which one you want now?

Before you point out AA, I say,

a) wtf cares if you have 77 or AK vs. that hand
and
b) We have an A, so AA is less likely


So, 300BBs deep this is kind of sick, since I did not notice that OP says he doesn't 3-bet light.

But irrespective of this, I wasn't arguing whether to get all-in here, I was arguing against the general sentiment that you shouldn't worry about pre-flop edges vs. this guy simply because he sucks post-flop. Pre-flop edges can still matter a lot.
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:21 PM
saskaman saskaman is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

I wasn't trying to be snide at all. Sorry you took that way. You answered my question. However, I would want to play post flop with this guy and push on made hands of 99 - AA preflop.

I thought you were arguing to get it all in with AK. Suppose he flips QJ or 99. does a skilled player want to risk deep stacks on 60/40s? I don't. 4 betting thinking opps is a much different game then drunk maniacs.
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Jamsym Jamsym is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

We're going to experience some sick varience if we want to push this likely small edge for 300BB.

As others have said i would wait until i hit something before commiting 300BB's.

If he's as bad as op says then we have plenty of chance to get it in with a bigger edge this deep.
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:53 PM
bilbo-san bilbo-san is offline
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Default Re: How do you like to play against maniacs like this??

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't trying to be snide at all. Sorry you took that way. You answered my question. However, I would want to play post flop with this guy and push on made hands of 99 - AA preflop.

I thought you were arguing to get it all in with AK. Suppose he flips QJ or 99. does a skilled player want to risk deep stacks on 60/40s? I don't. 4 betting thinking opps is a much different game then drunk maniacs.

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Let's think in terms of average return per hand.

AK vs. QJ, you are a 65:35 favorite. On 100BBs, that's a return of 30BBs.

No way is your post-flop edge good enough to *average* a 30BB return, and you'd be insane to pass up that edge. Sure he stacks off light, but he still has to flop SOMETHING to keep going.

Of course, if you could see his cards, you'd do things differently (take a cheap flop with AK vs. 99, get all in with AK vs. QJ, etc). But you can't do that. It's just ranges. And if his range is very wide for getting it in pre-flop, AK is a premium with an edge that you simply should not pass up. 77 does not have a huge edge vs. a wide range and you'd rather take a flop cheap.
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