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  #41  
Old 09-20-2007, 12:56 PM
NL Newbie NL Newbie is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

Bet flop,
Check behind turn,
Call or bet river.

This way you protect on the flop and get value from AK.
Then you entice AK to bluff/value bet river plus have odds to call anyway since 50/50 vs Sets/AK and youve encouraged a bet.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #42  
Old 09-20-2007, 01:02 PM
Zen_Approach Zen_Approach is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

I think you have to cbet this flop most of the time.

Villain will turn up with AK, QQ, AQs, JJ and throw in a couple other weird hands here and there.

I understand the desire to control the pot, but even this villain is going to have a very hard time getting away from AK here. If he raises it will at least allow you to make a judgement call here on the flop. If you give a free card, you will still be faced with the same difficult decision on the turn.

I don't like checking this flop. There are a lot of scare cards that can come up on the turn, both for you and also for an AK if he has one. I think this is a situation where you protect the pot and bet.
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  #43  
Old 09-20-2007, 01:09 PM
panda panda is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you don't want to be controlling the pot here, you want to be building a big one. You arent folding anywhere

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking for a fold. I was wondering if I should be looking for a safe turn before commiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're not going to fold this hand in a 3-bet pot then why are you waiting for a safe turn?
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  #44  
Old 09-20-2007, 02:54 PM
TheDoubleA TheDoubleA is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

Jesus I have so much work to do but I keep reading this thread. wtf?

Anyways, now I thought of this line: Villian holds KQs. He checks. You fire out 2/3s pot. He calls. Turn is a blank. You bet pot. He feels like he has to call with top pair. You get paid.

I think building a pot on the flop is a great idea, and when you get raised, then you can worry about the board being really scary.


After the thread has run its corse, I would be interested to see the rest of the hand history if you would mind.
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  #45  
Old 09-20-2007, 03:08 PM
bozzer bozzer is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

i don't care about gutshots, so if you feel like a turn bet will tell you enough about what he has to fold (???) or get him to pay you with QQ you can check and fold to reduce your variance.

I can't fold though, so I commit here. Its pretty thin but aggressiveness is good for meta game. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Most of his calling range is AK - 6 combos of AK, 3 combos of JJ, and max 3 of KK (should be adjusted down for some chance of 4bet). I think we should assume 99 and KQ cancel out.

That said a check behind, planning to get it all in on the turn might maximise your expectation. i get it in on all turns however - we might as well bluff the scare card as be bluffed by it IMO.
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  #46  
Old 09-20-2007, 03:21 PM
Genz Genz is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you don't want to be controlling the pot here, you want to be building a big one. You arent folding anywhere

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking for a fold. I was wondering if I should be looking for a safe turn before commiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're not going to fold this hand in a 3-bet pot then why are you waiting for a safe turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
It increases the playability of my hand. Or it could. If he has a funny draw, he has less equity with one card to come. If he has a mediocre hand, he might widen his range because he thinks it's good.

As a summary: I see that almost all of you want to bet the flop. There has been a good exchange of arguments and what it boils down to - as always in marginal spots - is, how you weigh the risks against each other.

For those who care, here are the results:

I checked behind. The turn was a blank 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villain checked again. I bet $3.5 and he folded. So looks like QQ, AQ or AJs maybe. I'll never know.

So thanks everyone for participating. Really good discussion. I think everyone could take away something from it since a lot of fundamentals were ventilated here.

Feel free to discuss further if you want to. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #47  
Old 09-20-2007, 04:34 PM
Rythm Rythm is offline
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Default Re: Pot control or protection? Discuss this texture

I'm really glad you posted this hand because I agree that there was some really good discussion. This is probably the most interesting thread I've seen since I started reading uNL more frequently. I think I could be convinced that NL newbie's bet, check, bet is better than my bet, bet, but there's still no way I'm checking this flop behind.

As you said it's a matter of weighing the risks against each other, and I just can't see how the risk of losing value from QQ while we're ahead of it outweighs the risk of not getting value from AK because a scarecard hits or getting outdrawn by QQ/TT.
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