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  #21  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:09 PM
James. James. is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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normally, i'd raise no less than 89s there.


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lol

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lol? nice response. well thought out.

so you dispute that we have an equity edge in the CO with 89s versus 5 bad, loose live limpers? so you dispute that it's not worth buying the button for the extra sb pf? and possible get a free card on the flop?

i'm not sure because all i read was "lol".

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It's a marginal raise.Personally, I think this style of play just isn't practical though for live players.
Live players should try to minimize their variance while not sacrificing significant edges.
That way, you can have a more steady income, and move up aggressively in limits. Even small increases in your hourly standard deviation have huge effects on your bankroll requirements. Personally, I like being able to play with 200bb and a 2% risk of ruin.

If you don't really care about that stuff, then raising can be fine, but there are also strategic drawbacks to it.

Namely, when you flop a medium strength hand (which is what you will flop most of the time), you will be in a lot of trouble for 2 reasons:

1. You will be unable to protect your hand
2. You will be tied onto the pot, forcing you to draw to what may easily end up being a 2nd or 3rd best hand

I'll admit that I don't have a method for quantifying the pros and cons of playing a larger pot in this situation with this hand versus these opponents.

Certainly, there is value to getting a free card on the flop, and buying the button, and I think your equity should be fine so it is a play that should be considered at least some of the time.

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thanks for expanding on your original post snowball. before i respond, i would like to know:

what's your CO PFR range with 5 loose limpers?
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  #22  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:45 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

can we not hijack another thread with this same discussion?
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  #23  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Red Shell Red Shell is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

Snowball,

I kinda agree/disagree with what you've said. There are pro's con's to both styles which are fairly obv, although i don't think 98s is a marginal raise given the situation, you have a tonne of equity vs 5 limping ranges and are raising for value.

My other main problem with trying to decrease variance in such a way is it kills your learning curve which has an effect on your hourly earn as your going to end up learning at a higher cost.
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  #24  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:58 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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what's your CO PFR range with 5 loose limpers?

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A9s+, AQo+, 99+, JTs, QTs+, KTs+

I like to have some high card equity.
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  #25  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:59 PM
SNOWBALL SNOWBALL is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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My other main problem with trying to decrease variance in such a way is it kills your learning curve which has an effect on your hourly earn as your going to end up learning at a higher cost.

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what does this mean?
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  #26  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:03 PM
Tugg Tugg is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

I only go as low as JTs, but I'm surely a bit too tight.

I think a lot of these hands like 98s have a pre flop equity edge that is not quite as large as we think. In my game people limp all the time with AK,AQ,QQ,JJ all the time, so when alot of the LPPs limp about all I can rule out is AA,KK. On the other hand, these same people don't limp with the 25o, 93o type hands outside the blinds.So while they may call with junk is not truely random hands.

Also, when we raise we are making the pot bigger and decrease our post flop expectation by giving our opponents correct odds to draw.
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:57 PM
obi_wang obi_wang is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

one of the reasons i posted was to figure out situations when i should call/fold/bluff on the river in big pots.

- if the river was 8 diamonds, bb bets and other player doesnt call, should i still call?

- if river is same 8 clubs, bb bets, and other player calls, should i still call?

- if my read on bb was aggressive who continued to bet missed draws on river, do you go for a bluff-raise if the river completely blanks off? i don't have this play in my arsenal at live $3/6 games...
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  #28  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:17 PM
mikeca mikeca is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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so you dispute that we have an equity edge in the CO with 89s versus 5 bad, loose live limpers?

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I did some experiments with PokerStove to try to understand how much of an equity edge 98s really has. It looks to me against 5 player that are playing 50% of their hands preflop 98s has no equity edge. Against players that are playing 66% there is a small equity edge and it gets larger as the opponents play more. It looks to me that raising 98s for value requires really bad opponents. If 5 limpers to the CO is normal for this game, the raise can be for value.

For 86s it did not look like there was an equity edge even over players playing 85% of their hands.
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:24 PM
James. James. is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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what's your CO PFR range with 5 loose limpers?

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A9s+, AQo+, 99+, JTs, QTs+, KTs+

I like to have some high card equity.

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then we're arguing over very little difference. i'm guessing 6-8 ways against loose crappy limpers, AQo holds about 2% more of an edge than 89s.

in other words a)we're not arguing over much of a difference and b)we likely should not hijack this thread any further.

my original point is it's not as "lol" as you first said.
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  #30  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:33 PM
Red Shell Red Shell is offline
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Default Re: 68s monster pot

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Quote:
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My other main problem with trying to decrease variance in such a way is it kills your learning curve which has an effect on your hourly earn as your going to end up learning at a higher cost.


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what does this mean?

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means that if you try to decrease variance your not pushing your edges enough, which in turn means that when you move up you'll be weaker than most postflop.
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