10/20 Stud 8 Live

[templar999]

This is probably the most interesting hand I've played in a long while. There have been so many different opinions on just about every street that I'm beginning to doubt if I didn't make terrible plays on every street. Comments on 5th, 6th, and river appreciated.

$1 Ante, $3 BI, 9 handed
Suits are irrelevant except for clubs. Seat 7 is a very aggressive player on the early streets. Good hand reader, but tends to get stubborn. Seat 8 is an excellent, experienced player. Rarely gets jammed in unless he has one side locked up. Doesn't get out of line. Lots of mutual respect between us. Seat 2 is inexperienced at hilo, but is a very good stud high player at high limits. I have a tight image at the table.

Seat 7: (XX)2c BI_calls
Seat 8: (XX)5x calls_calls
Seat 1: (2K)Kh completes
Seat 2: (XX)Jx calls
Seat 5: (XX)6x calls
Other dead cards: 4, T, A, one of them a club. The ace had folded between me and seat 8. One of my kings is a club.

4th street
(XX)2c_8x calls_calls
(XX)5x_7x raises_calls
(2K)Kx_3x bets_raises
(XX)Jx_Xc calls_folds
(XX)6x_brick folds

5th Street
(XX)2c_8x_6x calls_calls
(XX)5x_7x_Ax raises
(2K)Kx_3x_Ac bets_calls (?)

6th street
(XX)2c_8x_6c_Jx checks_calls_calls
(XX)5x_7x_Ax_8x bets_raises
(2K)Kx_3x_Ac_6x checks_raises_calls (?)

7th Street
(XX)2c_8x_6c_Jx (X)
(XX)5x_7x_Ax_8x (X)
(2K)Kx_3x_Ac_6x (4c)

I checked dark and got ripped for it. I still think I'm checking if I saw my card. I'll chime in with my thoughts later.

Thanks.

[Tha Stunna]

You played this very aggressively, probably too aggressively in my opinion.

3rd: I would limp here. You have three low cards behind you, including an ace, and already have one caller. Kings run into trouble in multiway pots, and you will probably get one. Since you're seen as tight, raising probably won't narrow the field much more than just calling would. Raising probably costs you money.

Against a good player I'd worry about that jack that called, but against a stud high player you are fine.

4th: That looks good. You would be a dog against 7-5, but you're a money favorite if even one of the two others calls the 3bet.

5th: Things got much worse here, don't automatically make a continuation bet. You are playing for half and you are not a 2/3 favorite to win your half. Probably a spew. With aces or two pair your play would probably be right with the dead cards out.

6th: Fairly bad. 2-8-6-J is definitely a dog here, but that doesn't mean you aren't as well. There's a reasonable chance you're losing both ways, although you could make some money on 7th with the right card... but save the raise for when you're ahead.

7th: Checking is probably not best. You probably aren't scooping (although you certainly can), so most of your money comes from 2-8-6-J. By betting out, you easily get one bet from them, and maybe four if they call the raise-reraise (they will not fold for a fourth bet 98% of the time). By check raising, you give them the best chance to get away from the hand. If you think that player has two small pair and made it this far, then check-raising would be pretty great... but that makes no sense.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts though, because you play very differently than I do.

[RandomUser]

I don't mind just calling on 5th and there is too much in the pot to consider folding even though you are now most likely behind. Seat 8 probably has either made his 7 low or he paired his A and has a draw to a 7. Neither case is particularly good.

6th Street, Im not so sure about. While the 6 definitely helps, I think you are still in third place as far as equity goes. I can't see anyone believing that you have a 6-low considering your initial raise with the K, and there is no guarantee that naked Ks are going to win the high. You are pumping a pot that you could easily win no part of.

I think I would just check-call on 6th.

7th I would definitely bet out. You missed your 2nd pair, but a 6-4 is going to be good here 95%+ of the time for the low.

I almost feel badly for Seat 8. It looks like he made his low on 5th street and is just calling down. Did he really think he had a shot at the low against Seat 7? From your mention of clubs, I'm guessing he had a low with a club redraw, but I can't see it being worth it to call down the entire hand the way he did.

[RandomUser]

Couple worst case scenarios from two dimes giving Seat 8 a low with a club redraw and seat 7 a low.

pokenum -mc 500000 -7s8 ad 2d 3h kh kc - ah 2h 3s 5c 7d - 2c 3c 4c 6c 8d
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV

Kc Ad 2d Kh 3h 8578 183678 315923 399 19254 42757 5610 0.206
3s 5c 7d Ah 2h 61751 64928 434673 399 381084 113236 5680 0.449
6c 4c 3c 2c 8d 76102 250995 249005 0 93335 405295 1370 0.345

pokenum -7s8 ad 2d 3h kh kc 6h - ah 2h 3s 5c 7d 8s - 2c 3c 4c 6c 8d jd
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 35904 enumerated outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV

Kc Ad 2d Kh 6h 3h 3594 21948 13956 0 5322 5934 360 0.382
8s 3s 5c 7d Ah 2h 3100 3396 32508 0 26208 9516 180 0.414
6c 4c 3c 2c Jd 8d 3144 10560 25344 0 4014 31710 180 0.204

I was honestly surprised to see your equity was that high on 6th street, but guess that is due to the fact that I gave noone else a pair.

That does seem to make raising worthwhile with >33% equity, but it isn't a huge edge.

If you give Seat 7 As, however, it remains ugly.

pokenum -7s8 ad 2d 3h kh kc 6h - ah ac 3s 5c 7d 8s - 2c 3c 4c 6c 8d jd
7-card Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better: 35904 enumerated outcomes
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc Ad 2d Kh 6h 3h 0 4946 30958 0 9822 1698 96 0.206
8s 3s Ac 5c 7d Ah 2920 21454 14450 0 5071 30833 0 0.369
6c 4c 3c 2c Jd 8d 6160 9504 26400 0 20915 14893 96 0.424

[templar999]

Stunna,

I've actually never played kings quite this aggressively. And your breakdown is spot on with how I almost always play this hand. The play of this hand just "felt" right against these two opponents. I'll post my thoughts a little later.

Thanks.

[templar999]

Thanks for the run down at twodimes.

A few things.

1. Re: all three sims. I think you're giving Seat 7 way too big a hand. The hands you're giving him have him starting with 234s. There's no way he's not three betting a field of five players on 3rd street. In fact if he had any two low clubs in the hole, he'd be three betting on 3rd.

2. Re: the second sim. I think I become a slight favorite against seat 8 if you account for a couple more of the dead cards. 6's are looking dead, and that's the key card he needs for the straight. seat 7 also doesn't have more than 5 clubs to catch.

3. re: the third sim. he needs the case ace for aces. If he has the hand you're putting him on, that is, three to a wheel with an ace concealed, wouldn't you complete with that hand on 3rd?

But I am surprised at how ugly it could have gotten for me if my opponents were that tight to be limping with those monsters. With one card to come, I thought I'd at least be running neck and neck with them in a 3 horse race.

[PokerJans]

[ QUOTE ]
Seat 7: (XX)2c BI_calls
Seat 8: (XX)5x calls_calls
Seat 1: (2K)Kh completes
Seat 2: (XX)Jx calls
Seat 5: (XX)6x calls
Other dead cards: 4, T, A, one of them a club. The ace had folded between me and seat 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I retarded or is this not possible?

Anyway raising with a big split pair in EP after one limper and an assortment of low cards behind you in usually a recipe for disaster.

Going onto fourth the way things played out I would probably just check and call one bet. The two players who caught bricks are probably going to fold anyway so lets make sure we aren't ramming and jamming against one and maybe two hands that have scoop potential.

5th is a very easy check and fold. I guess the pot is bigger now but we are against two low boards and playing the hand out from this point onward is just going to suck.

Since we got to 6th lets just check call because we are behind but have a nice draw.

Definitely try and bet/three bet the river now that we made a 64. Almost certainly have the best low here. Lets trap that 862 guy in between.

[Andy B]

I'm not sure if it's templar, but someone has been posting about nine-handed stud games.

[Durs522]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if it's templar, but someone has been posting about nine-handed stud games.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's templar. The game he plays in (Borg 2 way) is played 9 handed with an out button.

[chillrob]

I have played in the Borgata two way - actually if I remember correctly it is played 10 handed with an out button, so they deal in up to 9 people per hand. Often people are walking though, and it is a pretty tight game so no worry about running out of cards.