quick poll, if you would be so kind.

[blankoblanco]

yeah, because "good" players i'm sure just love playing huge pots with AQ oop when they have no reads whatsoever. those majority of times you whiff the flop, are you going to float/donk/raise his cbet and just pray he doesn't have it, when you don't know a thing about how he plays? or give up every time you miss and bleed money? either way you're stabbing in the dark at a disadvantage, has little to do with sucking or being good IMO

[BobboFitos]

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yeah, because "good" players i'm sure just love playing huge pots with AQ oop

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yeah, i do when they are 3betting 10% of their hands (OR MORE, those damn [censored]).

for what it's worth, if someone is 3betting only 5% or so, id stick to AK. 10%, AQ. 15%, AJ. 20%, AT. And so on... sometimes yuo look stupid, but thats poker.

[ QUOTE ]
those majority of times you whiff the flop, are you going to float/donk/raise his cbet and just pray he doesn't have it, when you don't know a thing about how he plays? or give up every time you miss and bleed money?

[/ QUOTE ]
why is giving up bleeding money? Even if you dont insert any fanciness (which I do) you're hardly losing by check folding real bad flops. just chalking the pot to the aggressor who happens to have position, and although preflop you had a good hand, postflop it's also not such a good hand. When you go 0-3 in those situations, you tend to not win the pot, and thats ok with me. It's how you do in 1-2 and 2-1 scenarios that count.

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either way you're stabbing in the dark at a disadvantage, has little to do with sucking or being good IMO

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I dont think this is true at all

[blankoblanco]

well i also think we have a hand that is either going to win us a medium sized pot when we do hit, or lose us a large one. exceptions, but by and large i think it's true. sure, if he's 3betting 10% or more of his hands, we'd play it, but the entire point is we have no idea how tight he's 3betting us

as i suggested, it's not as though i think folding is definitively better, but i think it's lame to suggest a "good" player should always call here. i wouldn't be surprised if it's really marginal and i also wouldn't be surprised if folding generally has a better expectation, even from a really "good" player

i simply don't think the odds i'm being laid are good enough to make me want to play 3bet pots out of position with AQ against a player when i have no idea where they're at or how they play. it strips away many aspects of reading, which i think leads to emphasizing the positional advantage even more

[BobboFitos]

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well i also think we have a hand that is either going to win us a medium sized pot when we do hit, or lose us a large one.

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well, due to 3bet dichotomy we'll tend to win that medium sized pot quite frequently, and we'll soemtimes win a stack too.
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as i suggested, it's not as though i think folding is definitively better, but i think it's lame to suggest a "good" player should always call here.

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i'm not suggesting they should always call, sometimes they should 4bet, too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

call is default though.

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i wouldn't be surprised if it's really marginal and i also wouldn't be surprised if folding generally has a better expectation, even from a really "good" player


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I'm pretty sure call is +EV, but this is near impossible to prove.

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i simply don't think the odds i'm being laid are good enough to make me want to play 3bet pots out of position with AQ against a player when i have no idea where they're at or how they play. it strips away many aspects of reading, which i think leads to emphasizing the positional advantage even more

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well, the one thing that nullifies positional advantage is when you're able to get alot of money into the pot where you THINK you have an advantage. Think about it this way: If we had AA, and we just call, yes, villain has a positional advantage, but because so much money is in the pot, we dont care: This is a spot that is still better for us then them. AQo is similar to that although not as clear since it's not as good as AA.

[blankoblanco]

shrug, if you make a solid profit in this kind of spot, then more power to you. obviously nobody can really filter in poker tracker: "AQo -> 3bet pots -> out of position -> readless" in order to see if it's profitable or not. it's possible good players lose more in these types of situations than they think, but it's also entirely possible that good players profit here. i can't say for sure i wouldn't profit here myself.. just my intuition tells me it's not a spot i want to be in. i could certainly be wrong and i can appreciate your arguments in favor of calling/4betting

[tozzy]

call.
if its party 3/6 and hes a regular, lol raise/call and see him flip over A4s!

[Some9]

I fold but thats because I suck at poker. calling is certainly best if you know what you're doing.

[Unknown Soldier]

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for what it's worth, if someone is 3betting only 5% or so, id stick to AK. 10%, AQ. 15%, AJ. 20%, AT. And so on... sometimes yuo look stupid, but thats poker.

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whats this about?

[BobboFitos]

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for what it's worth, if someone is 3betting only 5% or so, id stick to AK. 10%, AQ. 15%, AJ. 20%, AT. And so on... sometimes yuo look stupid, but thats poker.

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whats this about?

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just ratios. kinda important frequency stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[HedonismBot]

Folding is bad