Standard Hypothetical Situation.

[jfish]

paster,

"standard fish" is very vague. vs many tags id check behind and call a bet on a blank river because i think pot control > charging draws. however, vs a fish who likely wont bluff it becomes best to just bet the turn. i think its worth noting that there are way more tag"fish" than regular fish that make checking for pot control better in general.

[AAismyfriend]

I'm betting turn every time vs described player. I agree with Jfish though that against a bad TAG I'm checking the turn a lot unless I have a really bluffy image.

[Pasterbator]

[ QUOTE ]
paster,

"standard fish" is very vague. vs many tags id check behind and call a bet on a blank river because i think pot control > charging draws. however, vs a fish who likely wont bluff it becomes best to just bet the turn. i think its worth noting that there are way more tag"fish" than regular fish that make checking for pot control better in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i assume most "tagfish" will be c/r the flop with a FD, bc they c/r all their draws bc thats the cool thing to do obv.

If we can greatly reduce the number of FDs in his range, then i agree that the check behind is obv better.

I guess "standard fish" was a bad term to use, but in my mind, this person would never c/r the turn on a semibluff or bluff of any kind, so our bet is obv for value/protection.

If we're raised its an easy muck, and when we're called, we still win the pot pretty often.

The reason i made this post is bc i think most people just check behind the turn in this situation with no real thought process besides "omg 2nd pair = pot control" which i think is wrong...a bunch.

[Jay Riall]

[ QUOTE ]
"standard fish" is very vague. vs many tags id check behind and call a bet on a blank river because i think pot control > charging draws. however, vs a fish who likely wont bluff it becomes best to just bet the turn. i think its worth noting that there are way more tag"fish" than regular fish that make checking for pot control better in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

jfish - The use of the term pot control here seems to be pretty wishy washy imo. How does checking behind on the turn control the pot more? Do you think it is likely he is going to lead the river after the turn goes check-bet-call? I don't. Do you think he is going to check-raise a worse hand on the turn? I don't given player description, and its not like we have decent equity if behind to make checking the turn any better either. Obviously you have reasons why you think 'pot control' by checking the turn is good, could you explain them please?

To me the vast majority of this decision seems to be not 'pot control' but maximising value against draws vs. maximising value vs bluffs/possibly getting an underpair to call more often on the river.

[jfish]

[ QUOTE ]
i think most people just check behind the turn in this situation with no real thought process besides "omg 2nd pair = pot control" which i think is wrong...a bunch.

[/ QUOTE ]

you think charigng draws on the turn is superior? bc this is EXACTLY what i think vs most opponents. id say i bet this turn vs like 10% of people.

[jfish]

i use pot control because i think his range is {Qx, worse pairs, draws}. i figure he folds worse pairs (especially on a J turn) and calls with Qx and draws. i think the bet is, in itself, unprofitable because his calling range is so "strong" - and when you bet, you are mostly donating money to Qx.

is this poor thinking?

[jfish]

this assumes he is also folding lots of draws on the turn.

[craig1120]

[ QUOTE ]
i use pot control because i think his range is {Qx, worse pairs, draws}. i figure he folds worse pairs (especially on a J turn) and calls with Qx and draws. i think the bet is, in itself, unprofitable because his calling range is so "strong" - and when you bet, you are mostly donating money to Qx.

is this poor thinking?

[/ QUOTE ]
No read my post from earlier. This was my point. Also, there is no such thing as "pot control." You are checking behind w/ AJ because it has showdown value and there is no value in betting.

[jfish]

basically the way i see it is that you really cannot play a medium-big pot here without putting in money against a range you are dominated against. if you check behind and he leads blank rivers, i sometimes still fold.

[craig1120]

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this assumes he is also folding lots of draws on the turn.

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Even if he calls all flush draws, I still believe checking is better..