50NL: I get taken to valuetown without a whimper

[Chomp]

Main villain UTG: 50/21/5
Unimportant villain CO: 57/5

I find this kind of thing happens quite a lot: I know I am being taken to valuetown by a better hand and yet -

a. Have a decent price on each street to call
b. Lack the balls to try to take it away on turn or river

Is this a spot I need to be playing hot-shot poker and making fancy moves/steals etc., or is it ok to just keep the hand under control, take the odds being offered and just move on if I don't improve?

Comments on preflop also appreciated.


Thanks.

..................................................

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($31.20)
BB ($55.65)
<font color="#C00000">UTG ($79.16)</font>
MP ($64.50)
CO ($186.95)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($59.30)</font>

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $3</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $3, Hero calls $3, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($9.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $3</font>, CO folds, Hero calls $3.

Turn: ($15.75) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3.

River: ($21.75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $3</font>, Hero calls $3.

Final Pot: $27.75

[Bramsterdam]

I reraise pre-flop and call down as played (and feel bad about it). I don't think that trying to make a play on the turn/river is the right play here and folding is too weak imo.

[DannyOcean_]

I find a fold or a raise on the flop. The flop is where you decide here, and calling down is not a good decision.

I never call this bc i cannot continue to call bets from him profitably. I usually fold this on the flop, with an occassional raise to keep him honest. But you can't call unless you have a plan for later streets, and imo calling down like this as a plan is just spew. Raise or fold flop, don't call.

[ontiltsoon]

I think you can also call for set value, being both villains so aggresive, having position so you can extract max, and having 110BB efective stacks.

Edit: Calling preflop that is.

[maccamack]

We should not be calling three streets of betting. We either find a raise or we fold. To me, it doesn't look like he likes that flop judging by his bet size - I raise the flop to $12 and fold to any more action.

[ontiltsoon]

[ QUOTE ]
We should not be calling three streets of betting. We either find a raise or we fold. To me, it doesn't look like he likes that flop judging by his bet size - I raise the flop to $12 and fold to any more action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah If you are going on after the flop, raising and folding to more action UI is best. As you can maybe win the pot on the flop (unlikely), and probably see turn and river for 0$ more trying to hit a T or J. Being carefull as maybe just Tens are good.

[bozzer]

i have changed my mind in the course of this grunch, so read with caution:

I think this is fine. I *really* doubt you are ahead, but we have to look at this from an EV standpoint on the flop.
you are a small dog to a 20% opening range (i assumed he wasn't positionally aware) meaning you have odds to call. if you raise you have to commit at least $9 and you turn your hand into a bluff. in retrospect you know you only have to call $6 more, so a call is much better because it allows an aggressive opponent the chance to keep bluffing.

i think it is important to look at the totality of the different lines from the flop onwards. we can't just look at the pot odds on the F T and R and decide each time we have odds to call. I don't normally do this myself, so my analysis may well be wrong.

i would squeeze pf btw. even if UTG has a similar hand to you/AK you will still take it down with a cb loads.

edit: this all completely ignores the fact that 'we have a gutshot'

[VayaConDios]

I'll add to the chorus saying that the flop is the place to make a move. The pot is still relatively small on the flop, and if you raise you might buy a free card to draw to your gutshot. I'm guessing he had something like A-Q or J-J. If he had a monster, surely he'd bet something somewhere.

[flo]

If those are significant stats i raise it pre to around $13 or something.
Bluffing post depends on the ability of villain to fold TP.

[Chomp]

Thanks for responses, but I am not convinced by the prevailing arguments.

Villain's range is all over this flop: {AK, AQ, KQ, TJ, KJ, K9, Q9, QQ, KK, 99}. Ok, that's not all a 51/21's range, but he is UTG and I think those hands are a significant part of it. If I want to raise, it is a PSB of around $18...why would do I want to make that kind of committment with 3rd pair in a raised pot? And as Bozzer says, I am essentially turning my hand into a bluff (or perhaps a semi bluff w/outs)

Also, given that I am almost getting direct drawing odds on flop, and that a raise folds the parts of his range I am beating, namely, {22-88, air}, and I can't be sure of my FE even against a Q as he may decide to draw with that hand, I'm really not convinced any other line is more EV than the one hero took.

I think this hand might look more ugly than it actually is in EV terms.