Bellagio Hand 2 3/6

[Ian J]

Same game as hand 1. All fold to the button. He's a young guy from Minnesota but not much of an online guy. We know each other well and are friends. He knows my game very well and vice versa. He basically plays really good and I would say is not out of line much with me and vice versa.

He raises his button and I 3 bet JJ in the SB, BB folds and Kirby calls. I bet the flop in the smoke and he calls after seeing it come A J 7 rainbow.

The turn is a 10 making it A J 7 T w/ 2 diamonds now. I bet after looking at the turn card and he now raises me. I call planning to essentially check the river dark with intentions of checkraising all bricks. I don't really check dark on the river, just in my mind. Likey?

The river is a J and I check.

Thoughts?

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

Don't really like the plan that you formulated on the turn. I think the money that goes in on the river isn't going to be nearly as good for you as you think (assuming a non-pairing board card), as the hands that both bet and call a river raise may not outnumber the hands that 3-bet you and make you vomit. BTW, note that the turn completed not one but two straight draws, and I'm not sure if 98 can be discounted much if at all from the preflop play.

On the actual river, I like your play even less. Weak Ax hands may now check behind, and you're now hoping he has a straight, as I think you'll generally still see those hands raise and call a 3-bet but they'll probably just call down against a check-raise. You may also induce a desperation bluff-raise if he was floating you since your play looks kind of donkish.

[vincevegas]

3 bet turn against Kirby and bet river.....dont think this is even close, he chks behind you too often his hand looks like AQ AK or AT and will chk behind the first 2 on the river barring a straight on the river...He chks all hands with a J on the river......Also, with the straight draw and pot so big your 3 bet will get called.....If the turn was a brick then i could see the call and lead river as Kirby would probably felt the AQ on the turn to your 3 bet.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Same game as hand 1. All fold to the button. He's a young guy from Minnesota but not much of an online guy. We know each other well and are friends. He knows my game very well and vice versa. He basically plays really good and I would say is not out of line much with me and vice versa.

He raises his button and I 3 bet JJ in the SB, BB folds and Kirby calls. I bet the flop in the smoke and he calls after seeing it come A J 7 rainbow.

The turn is a 10 making it A J 7 T w/ 2 diamonds now. I bet after looking at the turn card and he now raises me. I call planning to essentially check the river dark with intentions of checkraising all bricks. I don't really check dark on the river, just in my mind. Likey?

The river is a J and I check.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
he has AT here way too often and is gonna check that river. if he has KQ, he is unlikely to call a river c/r, so just bet and make sure one goes in. if he turned a set of Ts or has AJ, you're gonna get a bunch of bets anyway.

[DpR]

I agree with the others that this seems like a bad plan. With all the straight draws out there he is very likely to call a turn 3 bet, and him checking behind on the river is a complete disaster. I think you tried to get too cute on this one...

[luegofuego]

does straight raise a river donk? they do, right?

(i dont play much limit)

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
he has AT here way too often and is gonna check that river. if he has KQ, he is unlikely to call a river c/r, so just bet and make sure one goes in. if he turned a set of Ts or has AJ, you're gonna get a bunch of bets anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Minor point, but you'd have to be a real nit to fold KQ (or 98) to a river check-raise.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
he has AT here way too often and is gonna check that river. if he has KQ, he is unlikely to call a river c/r, so just bet and make sure one goes in. if he turned a set of Ts or has AJ, you're gonna get a bunch of bets anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Minor point, but you'd have to be a real nit to fold KQ (or 98) to a river check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are right, but kirby's river play is exceptional.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
you are right, but kirby's river play is exceptional.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does an exceptional player fold to this river raise, though? All that would have happened is that Ian would have 3-bet a Button steal, dark bet the flop, and called a turn raise. Which means, his hand does a convincing impression of one pair, which might have made trips on the river. It could also conceivably be a bluff, since there are some bluff-rebluff dynamics that come into play with the dark bet on the flop. Although I do think that playing something like QJ this way on the river would be a mistake on Ian's part, it's nevertheless close enough where unless he plays both cautiously and "perfectly", laying down the nut straight would be an error.

[HOWMANY]

I don't 3bet the turn much as a semibluff so against an excellent player I am with you on not 3betting the turn here because he'll fold lots when he is drawing dead I'm guessing. However I think I would donk almost any river. Donking looks like exactly what it should look like in this spot, you not letting him get a free showdown. However you could be doing this with MUCH weaker hands here so he can raise with all kinds of stuff you beat. I have only done this a couple times, but I think bet/3bet may be the best line on the river (especially this one). Maybe bet/call on nonfull house rivers. I'm betting for sure because I think that this is actually the best way to get at least 2 bets to go in when you both have decent hands. What to do in what I think is a likely situation of him raising depends on a lot and since I'm not you or him and haven't played with either of you I don't really know.

This river I think is especially a bet because A7/AT got gayed and he might check but I'm guessing is calling. 89/KQ are raising because I don't think there's any way he thinks you can have a set or AJ.

I know your question was about this river, but there are a lot more not full house rivers that can come so I think those are more important. Full house rivers you can bet/3. Non full you can bet/do whatever you think is right. If you c/r I think he is almost always calling or folding on paired board. Unpaired he is probably 3betting straights only.