JC Tran Controversy at Foxwoods

[TEKEE]

rules are rules & rules rule.

[jfez]

The intent of the rule is to prevent chip dumping in which a player would muck a BETTER hand to someone during an all-in. Otherwise someone could hold their cards unseen, wait for the dealer to deal the entire board, and then muck a winner in order to dump chips.

also the player was a total douche for trying to claim he tabled his cards.

One cannot determine what is a chip dump and what is a badly timed steal; and that is not the point of the rule

[JohnnyGroomsTD]

lol
The hand doesnt have to be a better hand to chip dump....
In the spot we saw, what he's holding is immaterial if he is trying to dump chips.... He couls muck any hand and be sure to give the chips away

[Hooked on Fish]

Matt,

I recently was at a final table of a tournament where a simialr situation occurred, but with a twist. The seat 10 player moved all in, and after some deliberation, seat 1 called the all in. The rest of the table slowly folded their hands, and when it got back to seat 10, he slid both of his cards face down halfway into the muck (the cards were halfway sticking out and could be retrieved). Seat 10 did not see that seat 1 had put the chips out to call the all in, and the dealer did say seat 1 had called, but seat 10 claimed he did not hear this (perhaps the dealer's head was turned toward seat 1?), or see the chips in front of seat 10 (blind situation because the dealer is in the way), or on and on with the different reasons. For this tournament, the hand was declared dead and seat 1 won the pot (seat 1 had A/K, and seat 10 claimed to have jacks, so seat 1 would have won the pot).

So, let me get this scenario straight: When all action is complete and two players are heads up in an all in situation, even if the cards are in the muck but can be retrieved (as they were in the above scenario), they must be retrived and turned face up and the cards run out so the winner can be awarded the pot?

Thanks

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
So, let me get this scenario straight: When all action is complete and two players are heads up in an all in situation, even if the cards are in the muck but can be retrieved (as they were in the above scenario), they must be retrived and turned face up and the cards run out so the winner can be awarded the pot?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. The rule is turn over the cards, not turn over the cards if you want to.

[shaniac]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt, given the video evidence of what happened. I know it was a correct "ruling" given the current guidelines. However, can you honestly tell me you think this is the most REASONABLE action, given the circumstances? If so, please explain how this is the most viable option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite simply it is the rule, TDA Rule #9 states

"All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete."

The dealer did his job by opening his hand. I totally agree this guy was trying to muck his hand and tried to say he was tying to turn it up. If JC would have one this hand it would have been mistake.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the feeling you would rather not answer the question, but just in case you missed it...Do you agree that the rule itself, which has been stated as fact to be enforced to deter collusion, is more valuable than allowing hands to be pulled from the muck that were intentionally folded allowing a player to awkwardly pull back their cards and push their chips forward, as he is obviously reversing a mistake he has made?

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get it straight, on a called all-in bet with NO MORE ACTION you think it is OK for the worst hand to win?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's OK, provided that the person with the winning hand WANTED to muck...it's a free country, c'mon, if you're too timid or too stupid to turn the winning (or losing) hand over, you should be allowed to forfeit your right to "cards speak."

I don't think the rule is good for the game...and I think the rule for any called bet (allin or otherwise) should outline your privilege 1) to either expose your hand and be eligible to win the pot or 2) muck it and forego your right to the pot.

Also, I don't think that dealers at any other venue enforce the rule the way it was in this hand...I'm sure you'll correct me if it's different at Bay 101 than the norm, but the way they did it at Foxwoods is often not SOP.

[AcTiOnJaCsOn]

he gets elimiated on day one later and wishes to remain anonoymous lol

[Matt Savage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Matt, given the video evidence of what happened. I know it was a correct "ruling" given the current guidelines. However, can you honestly tell me you think this is the most REASONABLE action, given the circumstances? If so, please explain how this is the most viable option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite simply it is the rule, TDA Rule #9 states

"All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete."

The dealer did his job by opening his hand. I totally agree this guy was trying to muck his hand and tried to say he was tying to turn it up. If JC would have one this hand it would have been mistake.

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the feeling you would rather not answer the question, but just in case you missed it...Do you agree that the rule itself, which has been stated as fact to be enforced to deter collusion, is more valuable than allowing hands to be pulled from the muck that were intentionally folded allowing a player to awkwardly pull back their cards and push their chips forward, as he is obviously reversing a mistake he has made?

[/ QUOTE ]

So let me get it straight, on a called all-in bet with NO MORE ACTION you think it is OK for the worst hand to win?

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's OK, provided that the person with the winning hand WANTED to muck...it's a free country, c'mon, if you're too timid or too stupid to turn the winning (or losing) hand over, you should be allowed to forfeit your right to "cards speak."

I don't think the rule is good for the game...and I think the rule for any called bet (allin or otherwise) should outline your privilege 1) to either expose your hand and be eligible to win the pot or 2) muck it and forego your right to the pot.

Also, I don't think that dealers at any other venue enforce the rule the way it was in this hand...I'm sure you'll correct me if it's different at Bay 101 than the norm, but the way they did it at Foxwoods is often not SOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the rule but if the dealer was to muck the hand not protected by the player than hand is over and awarded to the player with cards. I have seen dealers muck the hand in this situation many times.

Matt Savage

[ptartaglio]

I definitely see your point. I also didn't think about how it affects other players in the tournament.

[moorbr02]

the only reason, the dealers action or the floor decision were questioned, is because jc lost the hand. jc said nothing when the dealer turned the cards up. he said nothing, in fact he watched like it was business as usual as the dealer burned and turned the turn card and said nothing as he burned and turned the river card. he only got upset and blamed his loss on dealer error when he was ran down. the hand didn't touch the muck, the muck was on the other side of the dealer. the hand was retrievable and properly exposed, per tda rules. and how could any floor person rule otherwise? he got the story, the player was all in, he threw his cards across the table, the dealer exposed them as the rules state, the turn and river were dealt, his hand was the best hand. how do you gather those facts and tell him he's out of the tournament?