Limit 5CD: To Limp Or Not?

[Al Mirpuri]

I play at Paradise Poker. The game is $1/$2 limit draw with two blinds of 50c and $1. There is a bet and three raises per round unless it gets heads up when it is unlimited raises. The following is a common scenario where I fold instead of limping because I play tag but I have started wondering if I should limp. Here goes: someone limps and I find myself with a small pair, should I limp behind or just fold as per usual. I am getting 2.5 to 1 pot odds and I am 2.5 to 1 to improve to two pair or better. Is it neutral whether I limp or fold or do I have an edge if I can outplay my opponents post draw?

[Big Limpin]

It would only make sense to play it if you could isolate the limper (+significant outplay), when you know the limper's often got a draw, or folds unimproved face-pairs too much, or for some reason you can outplay him, isolated and in position. But you'd have to see some value from playing this pot with UTG, and then youd want to isolate...your edge evaporates if we play 4 handed, so definitely like the blinds to fold predraw.

If you see weakness, i'd suggest a better option is 2-betting him, and checking down your short when he d(1), and representing a >KK when he d(3). So maybe theres value there, if he's a weak/ABC guy, but thats if you raise...

To me, limping is a calamity; you absolutely can't allow the blinds to play free/cheap, your short stands no chance when its AKJ vs 88 vs 6789 vs hero's 66. Even with the button, thats a hopeless situation. Play flawless and maybe break-even, maybe. In all the big BIG pots, you'll have the 2nd best hands [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Then again, i admit, i've little experience in how pots play out with this line. Perhaps, if you become accustomed to it, you'd get to know pretty well when your small trips is good and 2pr is not, 44 alone is good, but 444 is not, that type to thing, and have big edge in the postdraw (especially if UTG it the tpye to limp 4 hearts and bet out). After all, they'd note you as a fish, it help image! I don't think its a very bad play Al, to limp these, but neutral might be the best case scenario, more likely i think fold best, and raising a more attractive option than folding.

It could all change if you knew very well what hands UTG will limp, and it also matters how likely the blinds are to come along for the ride.

[Al Mirpuri]

Thanks for your post, Big Limpin, I always feel honored when you reply. I always fold this spot for several reasons but the major one being that it would take flawless postdraw play to squeeze an edge and it is too difficult by half to know where one is. I think it would end up a neutral type scenario at best but for a lot of extra work and then there is the variance playing havoc with one's emotions!

[Idolatrous]

If you limp a small pair you're looking at playing a 4 way pot or more almost every time. There is also the possibility someone behind you is going to raise.

444 will be good a lot of the time, and if you can get away from it when you get reraised ok great. Any time you make 2 pair you're still going to probably lose, with the exception of when you make Aces up. And once again you're going to have to make the correct lay down with this hand very often for it to be profitable.

Why put money into a pot that you're most likely going to lose when you have nothing invested already?

[soulvamp]

You're 2.5:1 to improve, but you're not 2.5:1 to win the hand.

[Fnord]

I crush the draw games at Stars including many of the regs. My biggest advice is that in 5CD Limit you almost always want to have the best hand or be repping the best hand pre-draw. Most of my money comes from abusing the unbalanced ranges of my opponents in heads-up and 3-way pots. If you're into playing cards, then consider a game like PLO or PLO8. If you're into playing against players, you almost can't lose at Limit 5CD if you read far better than your opponents and play a reasonable number of pots.

Balance out your ranges.
Find inbalance in your opponents ranges. Adjust.
Be aggressive enough to make them wonder a little, but don't try to run over the table.
Be willing to bluff.
Be willing to call down light if you think the other guy is bluffing.
Be willing to laydown to legit strength.
Raising and folding to a 3-bet pre-draw is often correct. Particularly against players who are 3-betting tight.
Avoid drawing to a second best two pair out of position.
VALUE BET! There are spots where as little as a pair of Aces can bet bet for value. Bet/Fold is a good line, particularly since the pot tends to be smaller than Hold'em rivers. Also, since this is a war of information, avoiding showdown is good.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
I crush the draw games at Stars including many of the regs. My biggest advice is that in 5CD Limit you almost always want to have the best hand or be repping the best hand pre-draw. Most of my money comes from abusing the unbalanced ranges of my opponents in heads-up and 3-way pots. If you're into playing cards, then consider a game like PLO or PLO8. If you're into playing against players, you almost can't lose at Limit 5CD if you read far better than your opponents and play a reasonable number of pots.

Balance out your ranges.
Find inbalance in your opponents ranges. Adjust.
Be aggressive enough to make them wonder a little, but don't try to run over the table.
Be willing to bluff.
Be willing to call down light if you think the other guy is bluffing.
Be willing to laydown to legit strength.
Raising and folding to a 3-bet pre-draw is often correct. Particularly against players who are 3-betting tight.
Avoid drawing to a second best two pair out of position.
VALUE BET! There are spots where as little as a pair of Aces can bet bet for value. Bet/Fold is a good line, particularly since the pot tends to be smaller than Hold'em rivers. Also, since this is a war of information, avoiding showdown is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love your post. I too had begun to think these thoughts but not as cogently as you have done. Sad to say, I am now playing seven stud as there are no fish in the draw games at the site I play or rather there are not enough fish.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
there are no fish in the draw games at the site I play or rather there are not enough fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play well, the regulars are fish. Lots of spots where "solid" players are being too predictable or not calling down often enough.

[Al Mirpuri]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there are no fish in the draw games at the site I play or rather there are not enough fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play well, the regulars are fish. Lots of spots where "solid" players are being too predictable or not calling down often enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

There really are few regulars who are fish. That of course, is not to say that they do not have leaks. The point really is academic because I am sitting in a stud game with many more fish making mistakes over more betting rounds and all this is equating to mucho dollars. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[greggg230]

Holy [censored].

I was going to post something here saying that there are a lot of fish at 5CD.

See, I've been playing almost exclusively 5CD for the past few months. I've forgotten what Hold Em is like.

Holy [censored] [censored]. While I was typing this up, I had 67s raised from CO. SB with 40BB calls. Flop comes 345, two spades. He open pushes for about 10 times the pot. I call. He has K5.

On another table, I make 4BB to go from UTG+1 with TT. Two callers. Flop comes 68T. SB bets out, BB goes all in for like 10 more BB, I raise, and SB goes all in for a full buy-in. I snap-call. He has JT. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Yeah. I guess I forgot what fish meant. Holy [censored].

5CD players are pros compared to this.