NL 200 - JTs - Page 6

solids · #51 09-20-2007, 01:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]

We are easily good enough to call most of the time. If he bets turn and river I sometimes fold river when my sixth sense kicks in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. This is a huge assumption basically based on nothing.

Question to all those who are in favor of checking this flop to an unknown: Are you really planning on checking flop and calling a PSB on the turn (and river?) with MPSK?

Seriously, I'm open to this line if you can successfully justify that you are ahead here. Using your 'sixth sense' isn't justification, either. Keep in mind, his range is huge.

pineapple888 · #52 09-20-2007, 01:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So we agree that against a loose aggro oponnent checking has value but gainst a tight player or an unknow betting is best in that case??

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think the first part is pretty obvious, but it gets more complicated in the second case.

tagWAG · #53 09-20-2007, 01:20 PM

this is exactly why check minraise any flop, any texture, with an ace = $$$$$$$

OP, you must NOT fold the flop. Against an unknown, you can consider folding the turn.

And checking behind on the flop is sensible. In fact if your range for villain is only sets, skeletons and ghosts, then checking behind is 100% compulsory.

frenchfish · #54 09-20-2007, 01:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On this particular board I just feel that betting sucks.

His range is made up mostly of hands that are beating us, and hands that we're way ahead of. When you bet this flop and are called, what is your turn plan?

So it's more of a pot control/deception thing

[/ QUOTE ]

Ur plan is to give up against an unknown since u said it urself only better hand call here .(easy desision)

Now what if we check and he bets turn ??
If u answer is call ,what if he fires again on blank river?
(difficult desisions

90% of the time an A will be checking to the raiser on that flop ,lets find out where we are at now and avoid facing tof desisions.

pineapple888 · #55 09-20-2007, 01:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
obviously it's not an either or thing.

I do lots of things depending on villain etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

asume villain is unknown, his 1st hand at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I value bet because he could have any kind of random crap, and I'm done putting money in unimproved.

frenchfish · #56 09-20-2007, 01:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we agree that against a loose aggro oponnent checking has value but gainst a tight player or an unknow betting is best in that case??

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think the first part is pretty obvious, but it gets more complicated in the second case.

[/ QUOTE ]

obv read and image dependant against a tight player but do we agree against an unknown?

pineapple888 · #57 09-20-2007, 01:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this is exactly why check minraise any flop, any texture, with an ace = $$$$$$$

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure I haven't seen this move more than once or twice in the last 10,000 hands. An unknown will go away 99% of the time he whiffed IMHO. But if you want to pay off here, that's your business.

pineapple888 · #58 09-20-2007, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So we agree that against a loose aggro oponnent checking has value but gainst a tight player or an unknow betting is best in that case??

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I think the first part is pretty obvious, but it gets more complicated in the second case.

[/ QUOTE ]

obv read and image dependant against a tight player but do we agree against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, like first-hand unknown like I said above, but it wouldn't take much of a read to sway me one way or the other.

Jay Riall · #59 09-20-2007, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
how do you ever get value from your Ax hands if you regularly check in spots like this?

[/ QUOTE ]

?????

[/ QUOTE ]

If your checking Axx flops most of the time when you don't have an A then how do you get people to call c-bets when you do have an A?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I bet tonne of air on this board also. JT is not air on this board.

Betting is ok, I think checking is a fair bit better though. I'm done with this thread, its got retarded.

FullyBoat · #60 09-20-2007, 01:38 PM

I have a hard time wrapping my head around checking this flop in position and then calling a bet from the villain on the turn.

Are small PP and worse jacks really firing that often on the turn? I think you're much more likely to find yourself paying off better hands rather than inducing a bluff. With hands like this, I like to find out where I stand sooner rather than later.