AA on the button. Standard?

[7ontheline]

6/12 at Ho-Chunk in Wisconsin. Not very many interesting hands to post, I was pretty card-dead except for a few big pairs. Pretty loose table with lots of rivering going on.

SB is fairly solid TAG, MP1 typical loose/passive, MP2 slightly tighter but still not very aggressive, LP1 kind of a donkey, I'm on the button with black Aces.

Preflop:
So MP1, MP2, and LP1 limp, I raise, SB calls, all limpers call.

FLOP (10 SB)
K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets out, MP1 raises, MP2 calls 2, LP1 folds, I call planning to raise any non-spade/non-king turn.

Turn (9 BB)
7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, I raise, SB folds, 2 calls.

River (15 BB)
10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Checked to me and I bet.

Any problems here? Or super-standard?

[aK13]

Why didn't you just 3bet the flop?

EDIT: SB plays like spades by betting that flop -- he's calling 2 back to him, and you have the nut flush redraw.

[Nytecaster]

Too many hands beat AA here with all the limping going on. KT, 87, 65 as possibilities, not to mention rags that spiked a straight or two pair in some odd fashion.

EDIT: In other words, I would probably check the river at this point unless I was very confident I wouldn't get check/raised. A value bet in that case is okay.

It's usually best to charge high fees on the flop if you expect a lot of people to the river. That way when you get there you can slow it down expecting a possible suckout. Sometimes you can do that on the turn but you're usually better off jamming it on the flop.

Overpairs are vulnerable to turn and river cards. The more people that get to see them, the worse off you are. You're turn raise is something you can get away with once in awhile if you have solid reads and a board that can handle it. This is not one of them.

Turn this table into a tight/passive one with a rainbow flop and I could see where you go for the turn raise, but not unless you had optimal conditions really.


[ QUOTE ]
6/12 at Ho-Chunk in Wisconsin. Not very many interesting hands to post, I was pretty card-dead except for a few big pairs. Pretty loose table with lots of rivering going on.

SB is fairly solid TAG, MP1 typical loose/passive, MP2 slightly tighter but still not very aggressive, LP1 kind of a donkey, I'm on the button with black Aces.

Preflop:
So MP1, MP2, and LP1 limp, I raise, SB calls, all limpers call.

FLOP (10 SB)
K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets out, MP1 raises, MP2 calls 2, LP1 folds, I call planning to raise any non-spade/non-king turn.

Turn (9 BB)
7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
SB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, I raise, SB folds, 2 calls.

River (15 BB)
10[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Checked to me and I bet.

Any problems here? Or super-standard?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Grease]

I trey the flop, and I think that is superstandard. Minus the FD, the board is not drawy, and you have redraws if one spikes.

Look up "Two overpair hands" in SSH for why I 3-town the flop (and I think you should too in this point.)

People are taking the "wait for a safe turn" thing way to far IMO. It's not a bad idea perse, but I think that in this case, anything other than going apeshit on the flop is wrong.

[Ricks]

Nice post but I think you should reevaluate this thought:

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: In other words, I would probably check the river at this point unless I was very confident I wouldn't get check/raised. A value bet in that case is okay.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually one of the easiest VBs you could hope for and should be made without reservation in just about any type of game. No one is happy when they get c/raised here but that is a fear that you must overcome.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]

People are taking the "wait for a safe turn" thing way to far IMO. It's not a bad idea perse, but I think that in this case, anything other than going apeshit on the flop is wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not waiting for a safe turn because I'm afraid of getting drawn out, I'm waiting to get a double big bet in the pot. If I 3-bet the flop, I guarantee this table checks to me on later streets and no one here is going to cap me unless I'm crushed. The TAG is the only one who might fold to the turn raise (and did). He's fairly unlikely to fold to a flop raise, but I'm not necessarily trying to push him out there. I felt it likely that the flop raiser would bet out the turn. So I'm (in my head, at least) doing it for value, not protection. Is this still horribly wrong? If so, where is my thinking flawed now? (Appreciate all comments so far.)

Unfortunately, my copy of SSHE is not with me at the moment. I DO need to re-read it, but any explanantion of my errors here would be great. FWIW, my question was certainly about whether to 3-ball the flop. I'm betting this river all day.

[Haupt_234]

I don't mind your flop line as a way to mix it up. I would do this like 20% of the time and 3bet it the other 80%.

River is a pretty easy value bet.

[*TT*]

OP - please read the two over pairs hand in Small Stakes Hold'em to understand why 3-balling the flop is far better than calling and waiting for the turn. Your equity is high, you have dead money in the pot, collect it now, not on the turn. By 3-betting your getting an extra big bet in the pot now which might let you collect even more later.

[DoubleFlop]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind your flop line as a way to mix it up. I would do this like 20% of the time and 3bet it the other 80%.

River is a pretty easy value bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. I raise the flop most times, sometimes wait until the turn, though I wonder how much value there is "mixing it up" at a game like this.

River is an easy value bet. I just don't see someone having a str8 here. I think you lose more by not value betting the river than you save on those few occasions where you are c/r on the river. MP1 likely has TP and will pay you off, MP2 missed his draw.

[7ontheline]

All,

In retrospect I agree 3-betting the flop is correct. Certainly if a spade hits the turn my action goes away, I'm probably beat, and my turn raise plan is shot. In my (weak) defense, I was almost certain MP1 (flop raiser) had a K (I didn't think he would raise a draw here) and and MP2 was drawing. I felt that SB TAG probably had a pair or something similar also. He hadn't been betting out his draws. The table certainly wasn't aggressive enough to expect crazy action, so if I 3-bet flop I only get played back at later if I am beat.

So. . .my line in this case did get a 17 BB pot (of which i put in 5 BB). If I 3-bet flop and SB calls down because of bigger pot instead of folding turn I get a 16 BB pot (my investment is 4.5 BB here). If SB folds anywhere I get less. I was almost positive MP2 was calling to river and folding if he missed.

On the river in the actual hand, MP1 called and MP2 folded. MP1 had KJ, MP2 I assume had spade draw. SB told me he folded KQ. I think I got more money with my line, although it was based on my (correct) reads. I'm not so confident that I would say my reads are rock-solid though - they certainly could have been wishful thinking that happened to work out.