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Old 11-25-2007, 06:21 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Posts: 309
Default My NL venture, the story so far and recent development

After having had a good start with 25NL and some 50NL, past couple of days have been horrible. Until few days ago I had just broken 7PTBB/100 for almost 10k hands but now it’s all gone down the toilet. So I started thinking what am I doing differently. I must be doing something very wrong. So I sorted out the hands in PT and went over the biggest net losers.

One mistake that PT stats can’t show is that I became obsessed with my win rate, BR and winning every session. My BR for 25NL was at $595. All I could think was getting to $600.
I used to be death scared of Turn and River and didn’t really venture into that territory unless I at least had 2pair but mostly a set. I did c-bet more often than not but laid it down if I ran into resistance. Very nitty, but it seemed to be working. The threat of AI was hanging over my head and kept me in line. I lost a buy-in only a couple of times, and my nittiness was managing my downside. The PF play didn’t really change but I started peeling the flop a lot more. UI overcards. 1pairs and seeing resistance. Generally going past the flop too often.

I need to become a nit again. I also need to re-remind myself of certain ground rules, like where commitment threshold is. Need to safe-guard that BR and think of every dollar being worth thousand dollars. Stop being obsessed by BR and WR and just do the right thing and manage the downside, then upside will take care of itself. NL is a waiting game, you’ll get your set+ at some stage, until then make up your blinds by raising your premium hands PF and c-betting (within reason) them on the flop.

The following are some quick-fixes, sorry about the tautology. If I am able to incorporate the following into my play, I most likely will be leaving some value on the table but believe it will be more than offset by losing less. Sorry about the rant, all comments, suggestions and especially critisism, are more than welcome.

BIGGEST LEAKS FROM THE PAST 3 DAYS

1. Raising AK PF and flop misses totally, 345r, and EP donks – get out
2. Slowplaying made set/straights and letting others draw to a flush/boat – don’t
3. Flopping a set, villain calls every bet but bets big on the River on a drawy board – you don’t need to call to see what he has. And if he bluffs you off the hand, good for him
4. AA and flop comes all one suit, villain lets you do the betting – he has a possible flush
5. AK and flop misses, calling a raise on a paired flop
6. Spite-calling/betting all the streets when you know you are beat – you are on TILT, stop

SOME BASIC RULES TO FOLLOW

1. Do not bloat the pot with just top pair or overpair, even AA
2. Always raise “correct” amounts PF. Do not try to sneak in with premium hand
3. Don’t have to c-bet 100%, especially if AK, AQ etc and flop misses. Don’t have to call if c-bet gets raised and flop missed
4. If flop misses, get out, do not peel. You’ll get your chance later
5. C-bet gets c/r on the flop and flop did not help, fold
6. If raised KK PF and get re-raised, call, but if you don’t make a set, be careful, villain might have that AA
7. One pair on the flop is often not enough if villain keeps calling. In general, be extra careful with less than a set
8. Do not overplay AK, AQ etc on the flop, get out
9. Villain donks into PF raiser (you) on a dry board with lot’s of low cards, get out
10. Beware donks, raises and c/r’s on the flop
11. Only go past the flop if you don’t get that nagging feeling…
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:02 AM
djshawk djshawk is offline
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Default Re: My NL venture, the story so far and recent development

I appreciate you went to the trouble of typing all this out but I really disagree with almost everything you say. It's like you are teaching yourself to be weak tight because you are afraid of getting stacked. I went through a similar line of thinking, doing everyting I could to not get stacked and I think it's really held me back.

Granted at NL25 and NL50 you aren't going to get played back at all that much, and anybody who is a decent player won't be there for long. But by making rules like this you are playing robot poker and not adapting to situations.

Sneaking in with a premium hand is such an easy way to stack an over aggressive player who assumes you will always reraise AA/KK preflop - situational.

Not 4 betting KK preflop when it looks like you are going to get action is bad, the guy obviously likes his hand so get him to pay as much as possible now while he still likes it. If the flop comes Axx and he has QQ you aren't going to get much more out of him, if he has AK you let him get there cheaply. If you have KK preflop and can get it all in, do. Sometimes you'll see AA and lose a stack, it sucks but there is so much other crap that he could have stacked off with you did the right thing.

When somebody donks into you on the flop you need to look at that player and ask yourself why they donked. Is the board really drawy? If so they may want to ensure it doesn't get checked through to protect their hand. Is the board all low cards? If so he's probably put you on overcards and thinks you can't call a bet. If you've been cbetting a lot and he had a good hand he'd likely check raise, people are greedy like that. If he's gonna call a small cbet then maybe he thinks a donk is better because you might fold. Getting donked into really sucks but sometimes you just have to man up and raise, a lot of the time they will fold.

If you flop a set you should generally be happy to go to showdown with it for your stack, the board would have to be pretty horrible to warrant a fold, unless you are deep. If you've raised pre, bet flop & turn then the river should only be a small bet in relation to the pot and folding to it shouldn't ever cross your mind.

Not slowplaying is good advice, but sometimes it can be the right thing to do, especially if you are in position.

Being obsessed with bankroll & winrate is also something I do and it's really hard to get out of, but you must try! Dropping from $600 to $500 means nothing, if you are constantly checking br then you are going to try and reason that you have done something wrong. You likely havn't but by changing things, ie coming up with these rules, you will make your play worse. Swings are always going to happen, when you hit 30bb/100 over 2k hands you aren't the best poker player in the world even though it feels like you are, you havn't finally cracked it and will never lose again, you are just running well. Likewise when you drop 6bi you don't suck but it's much harder to deal with psychologically because we all associate losing with bad. The best way to deal with this is look at results over a meaningful sample/time period, how much did you win in Jan, Feb, Mar etc, 15k hand samples etc. These are still small samples but should all involve some running good, some running bad and so should overly inflate or deflate your ego.

I hope you get something out of this post, the biggest issue with my game at the moment is I'm too weak tight and nitty, and I'm certain this is because of thinking similar things to what you posted when I was playing at those levels.
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Old 11-25-2007, 07:23 AM
Ulkis Ulkis is offline
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Default Re: My NL venture, the story so far and recent development

djshawk, very useful and food for thought. Well, no-one ever told me poker was easy but I am determined to give it my best shot and work hard to get better. Posts like yours will certainly help to put things into perspective and help to think poker away from hand-level which I believe is also important.

Thanks for putting in a well-thought-out reply
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:32 AM
akak akak is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 214
Default Re: My NL venture, the story so far and recent development

Several of your rules above have to do with taking unimproved AK and AQ too far. Calling a donk or calling a raise to your c-bet when you just have overcards is usually wrong.

I used to do this all the time. I think it has to do with carrying the thought "yes! I got AK" to the flop even when you miss. If you miss and face resistance stop and think, "I can't really call here" and fold.

While I do disagree with several of the rules you set for yourself, I don't have a problem with setting rules to follow while you are in the beginning stages of learning the game.

For example, I've set a rule for myself that I don't even consider pure bluffs (except for c-bets of course). I used to get in a lot of trouble bluff-raising rivers that I thought the guy would surely fold.

I've decided that this is too complex a topic for me to focus on for the time being, and given the stakes I play, I know I'm not giving up too much value by completely eliminating plays like this from my game.
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