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#31
11-20-2007, 08:50 PM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
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Knowing what flops to CB/ raise a CB on is crucial otherwise you will just end up spewing. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is the hardest part. It would be swell if we could go into this in more detail. 
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#32
11-20-2007, 09:05 PM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
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I feel like I am going to get assigned homework soon. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img] Thanks for the posts. [/ QUOTE ] Chitown- The general problem with the premise of your argument above is that you are completely ignoring the fact that you often take the pot down preflop. Essentially, the 12 bb's you put in preflop had a good chance of winning the pot right there. Now, the 20bb's you are putting to win 25bb's also has a good chance to win the pot. The equity of them folding preflop, plus on the flop, plus the random equity you have of *gasp* actually hitting a hand and going to showdown is where we are deriving value out of tags that too often call 3-bets and fold to flop bets (the ones that still think blind setmining in 3bet pots is ok). Todd
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#35
11-21-2007, 02:03 AM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
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Um, the idea is that if you are doing this x% of the time, you might as well go ahead and wait until you have a top x% hand. Makes it real easy, and more profitable and stuff. [/ QUOTE ] But some of the top % are more playable and so should see more flops.
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#36
11-21-2007, 06:21 AM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Knowing what flops to CB/ raise a CB on is crucial otherwise you will just end up spewing. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is the hardest part. It would be swell if we could go into this in more detail. [/ QUOTE ] It's funny you bring this up because most people simply don't know what boards to c-bet on, what boards to float and what boards to raise c-bets on instead of floating because some boards induce double barrels from otherwise nitty players. I think the dynamic you are facing here is the struggle of information. The people that know don't want to tell you because they are not being sufficiently rewarded for their troubles and the people asking the questions are not investing in the forum, just taking. i have had a lot of coaching in nl theory and i've started writing or "compiling," pages on certain topics. I have 2 pages on the effectivenss of 3betting and exactly WHY it is effective. i think it would help a lot of people in this thread (not all).
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#37
11-21-2007, 08:19 AM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Knowing what flops to CB/ raise a CB on is crucial otherwise you will just end up spewing. [/ QUOTE ] I think this is the hardest part. It would be swell if we could go into this in more detail. [/ QUOTE ] It's funny you bring this up because most people simply don't know what boards to c-bet on, what boards to float and what boards to raise c-bets on instead of floating because some boards induce double barrels from otherwise nitty players. I think the dynamic you are facing here is the struggle of information. The people that know don't want to tell you because they are not being sufficiently rewarded for their troubles and the people asking the questions are not investing in the forum, just taking. i have had a lot of coaching in nl theory and i've started writing or "compiling," pages on certain topics. I have 2 pages on the effectivenss of 3betting and exactly WHY it is effective. i think it would help a lot of people in this thread (not all). [/ QUOTE ] I have no problems with people choosing not to give out information, but i do have a problem with you insinuating that im just a 'taker'. I may not have a very high post count...yet, but i think you will find at least 50% of my posts are of a giving nature in this and other forums. Please dont call me a taker!! Also, what was the point of your last paragraph?
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#38
11-21-2007, 10:47 AM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
[ QUOTE ]
It's funny you bring this up because most people simply don't know what boards to c-bet on, what boards to float and what boards to raise c-bets on instead of floating because some boards induce double barrels from otherwise nitty players. I think the dynamic you are facing here is the struggle of information. The people that know don't want to tell you because they are not being sufficiently rewarded for their troubles and the people asking the questions are not investing in the forum, just taking. i have had a lot of coaching in nl theory and i've started writing or "compiling," pages on certain topics. I have 2 pages on the effectivenss of 3betting and exactly WHY it is effective. i think it would help a lot of people in this thread (not all). [/ QUOTE ] So you write about poker in order to tell others you have ideas but choose not to share???? When to c-bet, raise, float, etc comes down to basic range reads. You need to ask yourself on each street, What is my opponents range? What range am I communicating? Based on the ranges and the board you can make good decisions. For example, you have standard TAG opening stats and raise from MP and get called by the BB. Flop = 6A2r. What range am I communicating? AT+, 66+, KJ+, etc What is my opponents range? 66-99, KQ, etc…. obv based on the opponents style. The important thing to note is that Aces make up a big chunk of your perceived range, therefore 6A2r is a good flop to c-bet. If the flop was 678r, not so much. Hands that hit that flop are a smaller part of your range. i.e. over pairs, sets, and 56,67,78,89,9T. It is not an exact science, so I’m not sure what is meant by, “Some people know, but they chose not to share b/c no one else is sharing” I wouldn't expect someone would be able to write up "Here is how you c-bet, float, and raise".
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#39
11-21-2007, 10:50 AM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Um, the idea is that if you are doing this x% of the time, you might as well go ahead and wait until you have a top x% hand. Makes it real easy, and more profitable and stuff. [/ QUOTE ] But some of the top % are more playable and so should see more flops. [/ QUOTE ] Isura, can you expand on this a bit? When you say “see more flops” do you imply maybe lowering your 3bet frequency in order to see more flops?
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#40
11-21-2007, 05:33 PM
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Re: abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]
Hypothetically if this was the last hand of poker you were going to play, or you knew you would never see these villains again, sure its +EV to repop IP pre and fire away on the flop.
But you have to consider the optimal long term frequency of 3 betting you engage in at these games. And if you're including 84 in there that frequency is gonna get exploitably high. Its getting more standard to 4 bet light (esp after CTS vids) when its pretty obvious the 3 bet has a very wide range, same as the 3 bet became pervasive once people started pf raising with all kinds of stuff. I strive for a 3 bet range of "I can't at all rule out a light 3 bet (97s, 55, etc) but he prob has it". Lately I've actually tightened up my 3 bet range (esp from blinds) vs aggro CTS wannabes, since they think everyone else is 3 betting light because that is their way of playing, and they project that onto others. If villain thinks you're horsing around and decides to play back when in reality you're just being patient waiting for it that is a great +EV spot. Fold the 84, wait for something halfway decent if you decide to pick on a weak opponent. You c-bet, get called, oops. If you barrel the turn you really want a fold not just for the pot, but showing down 84o is [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].
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