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  #41  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:24 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

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[ QUOTE ]
Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws.

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This is the Glass House dilemma that moderates are caught in. It's one of the targets of some of the neo-atheists.

People who claim their moral are derived from private messages or coded ancient texts can't very well deny the other guy the right to do the same. So they can't enter into the "is this a moral action" discussion because the answer is "what does his book say". If it says it ok it's ok, same argument they'd use for a action based on their book or private sourced info.

People like me don't give a [censored] what book some cult is claiming moral authority from. There are actions taken against people that are immoral by any meaning of humanity worth wanting. Moderates ARE one of the worlds problems precisely because of this running cover for the extremists that their approach to morality provides.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s why I like the rules of my religion – love your neighbor. We can’t “own women”. What are the rules of atheism?
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  #42  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:28 AM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the Glass House dilemma that moderates are caught in. It's one of the targets of some of the neo-atheists.

People who claim their moral are derived from private messages or coded ancient texts can't very well deny the other guy the right to do the same. So they can't enter into the "is this a moral action" discussion because the answer is "what does his book say". If it says it ok it's ok, same argument they'd use for a action based on their book or private sourced info.

People like me don't give a [censored] what book some cult is claiming moral authority from. There are actions taken against people that are immoral by any meaning of humanity worth wanting. Moderates ARE one of the worlds problems precisely because of this running cover for the extremists that their approach to morality provides.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s why I like the rules of my religion – love your neighbor. We can’t “own women”. What are the rules of atheism?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure muslims of various stripes like theirs, perhaps even more for some of them since they seem more willing to die for them.

My point is you can't say to him "hey, that's wrong you azzhole" since you must honor his claim to knowing it's right since the premise is the same as yours. "It's in da book."

luckyme
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  #43  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:34 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

Right. But, if one is knowledgeable of Islam, one can give an opinion whether or not this is a correct interpretation of the Koran.
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  #44  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:37 AM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
Right. But, if one is knowledgeable of Islam, one can give an opinion whether or not this is a correct interpretation of the Koran.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if it is ... then it's moral, right?
And who is the judge of what the correct one is? It's no different than any interpreted work, there is virtually no position that can't be supported.

luckyme
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  #45  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:40 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

Hence the word "opinion".
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  #46  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:51 AM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the Glass House dilemma that moderates are caught in. It's one of the targets of some of the neo-atheists.

People who claim their moral are derived from private messages or coded ancient texts can't very well deny the other guy the right to do the same. So they can't enter into the "is this a moral action" discussion because the answer is "what does his book say". If it says it ok it's ok, same argument they'd use for a action based on their book or private sourced info.

People like me don't give a [censored] what book some cult is claiming moral authority from. There are actions taken against people that are immoral by any meaning of humanity worth wanting. Moderates ARE one of the worlds problems precisely because of this running cover for the extremists that their approach to morality provides.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

A+

First chezlaw. Now you. What is the world coming to?
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  #47  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:55 AM
luckyme luckyme is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
Hence the word "opinion".

[/ QUOTE ]

So we agree. A moderate follower of any cult can't judge the morals of someone from another cult when the claim for the morality for each of them come from revealed truths and/or sacred texts. The Glass House dilemma.

There is no "atheist code". Atheists are free to argue from first principles. Think about how the American underlying documents were hammered out. "is this the kind of world we want to live in".... "or this..." or. With our innate humanity as a rough guide and our millenia of experience as a fine tuner.

luckyme
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  #48  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:04 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
Right. But, if one is knowledgeable of Islam, one can give an opinion whether or not this is a correct interpretation of the Koran.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter. When a book actually says, "if she refuses to have sex with you, stone her to death," it's irrelevant that most worshippers think it really means this or that.

The clearest, most direct interpretation says you must commit atrocities. That's enough to indict the text and any religion it's based on.

If the meaning is actually compassionate, then torture and brutality shouldn't be used to couch that meaning. The idea of a God planting these words, knowing that some people will take them at face value, torturing, killing, and raping their neighbors, is sick. It's absurd, but it's also twisted and evil.

As long as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are based on these texts, they will be sick, pathological religions regardless of the specific actions of their followers. An instruction manual on doing horrible things is an instruction manual on doing horrible things, even if people like to interpret it nonliterally.

Those publishing the message "commit atrocities" shouldn't be let off the hook just because they intend that message to be taken with a heavy dose of special nuance. Certainly the readers can't be relied upon to apply such nuanced readings, and extremism is only intellectual honesty among those who don't understand the various technicalities that make this rule or that rule inapplicable. As long as you say that the command is God's word, it stands to reason some people will obey it at face value. The seed of the violence and hate is the text itself, even if it's a stupid interpretation of the text that results in such behavior.

One thing that skeptics (if not all atheists) do believe is that everything - everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Nothing is absolute, nothing is the ultimate reference or the ultimate authority, and therefore a single misinterpretation can't result in awful behavior.
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  #49  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:08 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hence the word "opinion".

[/ QUOTE ]

So we agree. A moderate follower of any cult can't judge the morals of someone from another cult when the claim for the morality for each of them come from revealed truths and/or sacred texts. The Glass House dilemma.

There is no "atheist code". Atheists are free to argue from first principles. Think about how the American underlying documents were hammered out. "is this the kind of world we want to live in".... "or this..." or. With our innate humanity as a rough guide and our millenia of experience as a fine tuner.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course we agree on that point. One can only give a moral opinion and such opinion would be relative to a metric or one’s own metric.

I was being facetious about the rules of atheism.
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  #50  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:21 AM
tarheeljks tarheeljks is offline
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Default Re: Case in Point...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Right. But, if one is knowledgeable of Islam, one can give an opinion whether or not this is a correct interpretation of the Koran.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter. When a book actually says, "if she refuses to have sex with you, stone her to death," it's irrelevant that most worshippers think it really means this or that.

The clearest, most direct interpretation says you must commit atrocities. That's enough to indict the text and any religion it's based on.


[/ QUOTE ]

where does the koran say this? i'm not familiar w/it at all and i assumed that it was being interpreted loosely in order to justify atrocities.
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